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  1. Back To Top    #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotAScientist View Post
    I'm glad someone finally mentioned Eugene. This could be interesting.
    Yeah. Gimple mentioned that Eugene's #1 priority is safety, especially when it comes to himself, that being with Negan served Eugene's need for safety, and that Eugene will be good with that for only as long as being with Negan is safe - or something like that. He hinted heavily that things will not always be safe for Eugene in whatever situation he's in with Negan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice View Post
    I just watched the preview special. In spoilers:

    Spoiler Spoiler:


    Lennie James revealed:

    Spoiler Spoiler:


    I thought that was interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    JDM also said that Eugene is one who will also bring out some of Negan's backstory.
    They talked quite a bit about Eugene. I think Eugene is going to find himself between a rock and a hard place. He knows that his family thinks he betrayed them and were willing to blow him up along with the rest of the saviors because he said he was Negan. And he knows that Negan is suspicious about how Sasha died so his safety among the saviors isn't guaranteed. There may be other things that crop up in season 8 in that regard, but I think Eugene is going to realize at some point that straddling the fence will not keep him alive and he will have to make a choice one way or the other.

    Spoiler Spoiler:

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    Quote Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
    They talked quite a bit about Eugene. I think Eugene is going to find himself between a rock and a hard place. He knows that his family thinks he betrayed them and were willing to blow him up along with the rest of the saviors because he said he was Negan. And he knows that Negan is suspicious about how Sasha died so his safety among the saviors isn't guaranteed. There may be other things that crop up in season 8 in that regard, but I think Eugene is going to realize at some point that straddling the fence will not keep him alive and he will have to make a choice one way or the other.
    I think there's something in Eugene that cannot fathom the angst associated with the crisis of conscience his former family members would have to deal with in making the kind of decision he made so quickly and seemingly without further thought. His attempts to bring Sasha over lacked acknowledgment of what a decision to do that would do to her and complete disregard for what such a decision would mean to TF. Something tells me that the light bulb will go on for Einstein in season 8.

    You also wrote:
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    Thanks @meesha1971

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    I think the fight between Morgan and Jesus is about Jared. In the trailer it looks like he was captured and is at the Hilltop. Maybe Morgan wants to kill him because of Ben and Jesus stops him and a fight ensues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice View Post
    I think there's something in Eugene that cannot fathom the angst associated with the crisis of conscience his former family members would have to deal with in making the kind of decision he made so quickly and seemingly without further thought. His attempts to bring Sasha over lacked acknowledgment of what a decision to do that would do to her and complete disregard for what such a decision would mean to TF. Something tells me that the light bulb will go on for Einstein in season 8.
    I think Eugene does get that on some level, but he is being pragmatic. And, to be fair, that is what Rick was doing when Eugene was taken - playing along with Negan because he hoped nobody else would get killed if he did. Olivia and Spencer being murdered with Eugene taken prisoner forced Rick to accept that playing along with Negan wasn't going to prevent more deaths or more people being taken prisoner because he couldn't force everyone to go along with it. Ironically, it was very similar to what Negan did in the clearing - kill 2 and take 1.

    But Eugene is taken away before Rick makes that decision so, as far as he knew, Rick was still going to play along with Negan. Eugene didn't know they were all going to fight back until after Sasha was taken prisoner - when Negan revealed that a "little birdie" had told him what Rick was up to. Eugene hoped that he could convince Sasha and Rick to keep playing along. He didn't want Sasha to kill herself and was relieved when she claimed she had decided not to. And he had previously explained his reasoning to Rosita when she was insisting that he make a bullet for her - he believed that the only way they could win was to take out Negan and all of the saviors at once and he thought they should just play along until they figured out how to do that.

    What Eugene will have to accept is that playing along with Negan doesn't guarantee safety - just as Rick did. I think the fact that they were willing to blow him up along with the saviors will be part of that. And Negan has already showed suspicion over what happened to Sasha so that will likely be part of it as well. But what Eugene has done is smart and I think that's how he will earn forgiveness for what appeared to be a betrayal - and I say appeared because Eugene didn't actually betray them. He didn't tell Negan about the alliance with Hilltop, that Maggie was alive, etc... He kept their secrets. I don't think Eugene has a specific plan at this point, but by playing along with Negan, he's put himself in a position where he can help them from the inside. He's not locked up in a cell. He's not being guarded. He is free to go anywhere within the sanctuary that he wants. He can get whatever supplies he wants without anyone questioning him. He'll have to be careful, but I think Eugene and Dwight might end up working together to help Rick and the others defeat Negan from the inside.


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  7. Back To Top    #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
    I think Eugene does get that on some level, but he is being pragmatic. And, to be fair, that is what Rick was doing when Eugene was taken - playing along with Negan because he hoped nobody else would get killed if he did. Olivia and Spencer being murdered with Eugene taken prisoner forced Rick to accept that playing along with Negan wasn't going to prevent more deaths or more people being taken prisoner because he couldn't force everyone to go along with it. Ironically, it was very similar to what Negan did in the clearing - kill 2 and take 1.

    But Eugene is taken away before Rick makes that decision so, as far as he knew, Rick was still going to play along with Negan. Eugene didn't know they were all going to fight back until after Sasha was taken prisoner - when Negan revealed that a "little birdie" had told him what Rick was up to. Eugene hoped that he could convince Sasha and Rick to keep playing along. He didn't want Sasha to kill herself and was relieved when she claimed she had decided not to. And he had previously explained his reasoning to Rosita when she was insisting that he make a bullet for her - he believed that the only way they could win was to take out Negan and all of the saviors at once and he thought they should just play along until they figured out how to do that.

    What Eugene will have to accept is that playing along with Negan doesn't guarantee safety - just as Rick did. I think the fact that they were willing to blow him up along with the saviors will be part of that. And Negan has already showed suspicion over what happened to Sasha so that will likely be part of it as well. But what Eugene has done is smart and I think that's how he will earn forgiveness for what appeared to be a betrayal - and I say appeared because Eugene didn't actually betray them. He didn't tell Negan about the alliance with Hilltop, that Maggie was alive, etc... He kept their secrets. I don't think Eugene has a specific plan at this point, but by playing along with Negan, he's put himself in a position where he can help them from the inside. He's not locked up in a cell. He's not being guarded. He is free to go anywhere within the sanctuary that he wants. He can get whatever supplies he wants without anyone questioning him. He'll have to be careful, but I think Eugene and Dwight might end up working together to help Rick and the others defeat Negan from the inside.
    I think we're both right on this. Given who he is, he really had no choice but to go along with Negan. His pragmatism did not take into account the emotional toll that his cohorts with more emotional intelligence would experience, and the show Negan put on with the elder Dr. Carson probably confirmed for him that he had made the right decision.

    Eugene tried to convince Sasha by describing her choice as a "hold your nose situation" and added that Abraham would want her to do it. He explained why he did it - so that he wouldn't have to re-experience the "pants pissing" terror he experienced in the clearing when Abraham and Glenn were killed. He limited his entreaty to what it would mean for her and what it meant to him, but he didn't address what their changing teams would do to their family. Sasha explained that to him. It wasn't meanness or selfishness driving him - just cowardice and, as you said, pragmatism.

    Sasha, after Eugene came to her the first time, said she would join Negan. Next time Negan comes to her, he praises her decision and tells her they have a big day ahead because of what the little birdie told him. Eugene then comes to her and praises her decision, and she tells him she can't join Negan because of what it will do to their people and that her only way to help is to die. She asks Eugene to help her, and he agrees to bring her something. She doesn't back down on that:

    [Sighs] [Knock on door] Eugene: Sasha? I'm here.
    [Sighs] I've given our last exchange a good, hard pro/con think.
    I've decided to grant your request.
    Sasha: [Sighs]
    Eugene: This will do it.
    It's a poison, homemade by yours truly.
    It will bring about certain death in approximately 20 to 30 minutes upon the moment of ingestion.
    I would like to believe that it's painless.
    I am not -- I'm not certain.
    I made it at the behest of others for similar reasons, only it came to pass that they were feeding me the bum's steer, so I cut bait.
    The difference here is that you and I have been long-time traveling companions, and you have proven yourself to be honest, brave, and fully self-aware.
    I'm certain I owe you for things.
    You asked me for a way out.
    I had access to one.
    For the record, I absolutely do not want you to go.
    But it sounds to me like you happen to be already gone.


    Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.c...episode=s07e15 - our usual transcript source only goes through episode 10.

    The transcript ends at that point, so if there was more said, it's not there.

    Eugene already has a couple of strikes against him with Negan. The bigger strike is Negan knows Maggie lives and that Eugene didn't tell him. The other strike is that Negan seemed suspicious of Sasha's death and didn't seem to want to accept that she just "ran out of air". On the special, JDM mentioned how pissed Negan was at Rick that he'd lied to him about Maggie being dead. He said Negan was REALLY pissed about that. It makes sense that his anger will extend to Eugene (and FrG), as well, although I'm not sure if, how, and when he plans to address it with Eugene. He may let Eugene know that he knows so that Eugene can quake in his boots over it, but Eugene will be quite useful to him during the war. I think danger to Eugene is impending but not imminent. I think Eugene will know that, too, and that may be what triggers his willingness to subvert Negan. It's just another situation where he needs to be pragmatic.

    EDITED TO ADD: It should be pretty easy for Negan to find out or figure out that Eugene made what killed Sasha. The wives aren't going to tell him because then they'd have to explain why he did it or makes something up and risk Eugene telling Negan why; but if Negan decides to ask the right person or people to report to him on Eugene's activities, on of those people might say, "Oh, by the way, not long ago Eugene cleaned us out of cold remedies."



    You wrote:

    Spoiler Spoiler:

    I respond (the quote system is confusing when spoiler tags are involved):

    Spoiler Spoiler:

  8. Back To Top    #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice View Post
    I think we're both right on this. Given who he is, he really had no choice but to go along with Negan. His pragmatism did not take into account the emotional toll that his cohorts with more emotional intelligence would experience, and the show Negan put on with the elder Dr. Carson probably confirmed for him that he had made the right decision.

    Eugene tried to convince Sasha by describing her choice as a "hold your nose situation" and added that Abraham would want her to do it. He explained why he did it - so that he wouldn't have to re-experience the "pants pissing" terror he experienced in the clearing when Abraham and Glenn were killed. He limited his entreaty to what it would mean for her and what it meant to him, but he didn't address what their changing teams would do to their family. Sasha explained that to him. It wasn't meanness or selfishness driving him - just cowardice and, as you said, pragmatism.

    Sasha, after Eugene came to her the first time, said she would join Negan. Next time Negan comes to her, he praises her decision and tells her they have a big day ahead because of what the little birdie told him. Eugene then comes to her and praises her decision, and she tells him she can't join Negan because of what it will do to their people and that her only way to help is to die. She asks Eugene to help her, and he agrees to bring her something. She doesn't back down on that:

    [Sighs] [Knock on door] Eugene: Sasha? I'm here.
    [Sighs] I've given our last exchange a good, hard pro/con think.
    I've decided to grant your request.
    Sasha: [Sighs]
    Eugene: This will do it.
    It's a poison, homemade by yours truly.
    It will bring about certain death in approximately 20 to 30 minutes upon the moment of ingestion.
    I would like to believe that it's painless.
    I am not -- I'm not certain.
    I made it at the behest of others for similar reasons, only it came to pass that they were feeding me the bum's steer, so I cut bait.
    The difference here is that you and I have been long-time traveling companions, and you have proven yourself to be honest, brave, and fully self-aware.
    I'm certain I owe you for things.
    You asked me for a way out.
    I had access to one.
    For the record, I absolutely do not want you to go.
    But it sounds to me like you happen to be already gone.


    Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.c...episode=s07e15 - our usual transcript source only goes through episode 10.

    The transcript ends at that point, so if there was more said, it's not there.

    Eugene already has a couple of strikes against him with Negan. The bigger strike is Negan knows Maggie lives and that Eugene didn't tell him. The other strike is that Negan seemed suspicious of Sasha's death and didn't seem to want to accept that she just "ran out of air". On the special, JDM mentioned how pissed Negan was at Rick that he'd lied to him about Maggie being dead. He said Negan was REALLY pissed about that. It makes sense that his anger will extend to Eugene (and FrG), as well, although I'm not sure if, how, and when he plans to address it with Eugene. He may let Eugene know that he knows so that Eugene can quake in his boots over it, but Eugene will be quite useful to him during the war. I think danger to Eugene is impending but not imminent. I think Eugene will know that, too, and that may be what triggers his willingness to subvert Negan. It's just another situation where he needs to be pragmatic.

    EDITED TO ADD: It should be pretty easy for Negan to find out or figure out that Eugene made what killed Sasha. The wives aren't going to tell him because then they'd have to explain why he did it or makes something up and risk Eugene telling Negan why; but if Negan decides to ask the right person or people to report to him on Eugene's activities, on of those people might say, "Oh, by the way, not long ago Eugene cleaned us out of cold remedies."



    You wrote:




    I respond (the quote system is confusing when spoiler tags are involved):

    Spoiler Spoiler:
    It was in their conversation after that. When they came and let Sasha out of the cell and Eugene walked outside with her. This was in the flashbacks right before the saviors showed up at ASZ with Eugene making his speech with the megaphone.

    Eugene: Have you, uh, changed your mind about taking that allergy medication?

    Sasha: Yes.

    Eugene: Good. I think you'll get adjusted to the place, sinus-wise.

    Sasha: No, I won't. Not like you.

    Eugene: Everyone has a way out. Don't go and yuck my yum for takin' mine, which, I may add, is the same as yours now. If people die today, it's 'cause of the choices they made.

    Sasha: Yeah. It is.


    http://Read more: https://www.spring...episode=s07e16

    Sasha let Eugene believe that she had changed her mind and was going to play along like he was - though she didn't pretend that she would be as okay with it as he appeared to be. Eugene was relieved because he didn't want Sasha to die. I think he does understand that his family didn't like playing along - and wouldn't like continuing to play along - but at this point, he sees it as a situation where they either play along or die. As I said before, Eugene had already told Rosita that their best bet was to play along until they could figure out a way to take out Negan and all of the saviors simultaneously. He doesn't believe they could win by just fighting back and he hasn't figured out a way to take them all out at once - and he wouldn't think Rick had either. Likewise, he doesn't know about the other communities so he believes that they are still hugely outnumbered by the saviors.

    Eugene's advantage right now is his brain. Negan knows that he's smart and considers him an asset. He is suspicious about Sasha dying, but Eugene was prepared and had a logical explanation for it - she suffocated because of the tarp. Negan is still suspicious, but he can't prove Eugene did anything at this point - Sasha was alive and well when she got in and Eugene had no contact with her after that. Negan didn't ask Eugene about Maggie then - whether he had given that any thought at that point is unknown, but he was more upset about Sasha dying then he was about Maggie being alive. That could change though. Eugene will have to convince Negan either that he didn't know about Maggie being alive or that he was unaware that Negan had been told she was dead. He could pull either off since he wasn't there when Negan asked about her or when they showed him the grave and claimed she died.

    The Hilltop alliance is trickier though - so Eugene would probably be better off claiming that he was told Maggie had died and didn't know about Hilltop. Play it up as Rick and the others not respecting him enough or not trusting him because he wasn't a good fighter. Or he could just claim that Gregory had refused an alliance and Rick must have found a way to convince him after Eugene was taken. Or both. They were willing to blow Eugene up along with the rest of the saviors so he could probably convince Negan that he had never been a trusted member of the community. And Eugene had been at the sanctuary for several days so he was genuinely unaware that Rick was going to other communities to try to forge alliances and build up their numbers. When Eugene was taken, Rick was still playing along with Negan so he doesn't have to lie about everything.

    As for the poison pills, Eugene taking some cold pills isn't really going to raise any suspicion unless Negan knows how to use cold pills to make poison. And I doubt he does. As you said, the wives aren't going to say anything because they asked for the poison to kill Negan. And I doubt the workers would think anything of it - how many people are going to know Eugene could use those cold capsules to make poison? And Eugene took a bunch of other stuff too so he could claim that he just got carried away with being able to take what he wanted and just sign for it. Or that he thought Laura might be trying to trick him and was testing to see if he actually could. Eugene is smart so I would expect that he's already working out what to say if Negan asks him about that. He may have already worked something out when he realized the wives were trying to kill Negan and refused to give them the pills. Right now, I think the only way that Negan would know about the pills would be if he had instructed the wives to ask Eugene to make them as a test. Which is possible because Negan showed up to ask Eugene who he was very soon after the wives left. If that is the case, Eugene might be screwed - though he did keep one of the pills so he might be able to claim that he only made one and hand it over.

    Spoiler Spoiler:

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    EW is going to be posting some sort of news about the shows over the next 7 days:

    http://ew.com/tv/2017/09/13/walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-old-rick/


    Andrew Lincoln "Shocked" by Old Man Rick Twist:

    Fans gasped when they saw the final moments of The Walking Dead’s season 8 trailer at San Diego Comic-Con, and they weren’t the only ones. Andrew Lincoln was also taken aback when he was first told about the scene, which appeared to show an old and grizzled version of Rick Grimes.



    The scene, which also included a cane positioned next to Rick’s bed, seemed to mirror an important moment from the comic book, and if you don’t want to know about it, you should probably look away right now. And yes, this counts as your official SPOILER ALERT.


    AMC
    In issue #127 of The Walking Dead comic book, it is revealed that a two-year time jump has occurred after the war with Negan, and Rick has a new look and a battle scar from that war in the form of an injured leg. But again, that happens after the war with Negan, a war that only just kicked off on TV in the season 7 finale. So to do that time jump now, just as the war is starting, would not seem to make sense.

    Only time — and season 8, which premieres Oct. 22 — will tell whether the TV adaptation is going ahead with some sort of flash-forward strategy to show current and future events at the same time – similar to the Lost flash-forwards that began in the “Through the Looking Glass” episode. But whether the show is either going early to the time jump or purposefully misdirecting the audience by doing something else entirely, it serves as the latest reminder that showrunner Scott M. Gimple and his team are never content to play it safe, even surprising their star.

    “I was shocked and kind of excited by it,” says Lincoln of when he first found out about the twist. “My instinct was, what a great storytelling device. That was my instinct. I thought it was very interesting, and also gives us an opportunity to do something else a little ahead of the game, which I think is very, very neat.”

    Of course, Lincoln won’t confirm that it is the time-jump from the comics, even if he admits to certain visual clues. “I mean, it’s a gray Rick,” he says. “It’s an older Rick. So by virtue of the fact that you see, that means that it’s in the future.”



    But when in the future? And is it a real future or another dream sequence like the Glenn and Abraham feast in last year’s season premiere. “It will become somewhat clearer after the October premiere,” says Lincoln. “Then again, it may not be. It maybe still is somewhat opaque. I think that that’s possibly all I can say on the matter.”

    Spoiler Spoiler:

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