Daryl Debate Thread (Love and Hate)

[Doctor Grimes]

Thanks for the great response, @Outlast. You did a good job. (Also it's a relief to see at least some Daryl fans around these parts, haha!)

[Bekki]

Thanks for the great response, @Outlast. You did a good job. (Also it's a relief to see at least some Daryl fans around these parts, haha!)

We're few and far on here (and some leave) but we exist. There isn't much room when debating Daryl, I think he's one of those characters members have their minds made up about.

And thanks :)

[Doctor Grimes]

We're few and far on here (and some leave) but we exist. There isn't much room when debating Daryl, I think he's one of those characters members have their minds made up about.

And thanks :)

Unfortunately that's kind of me right now, at the moment. I used to love Daryl, but S4 was where he took the tumble. As many have said, it all kind of started with the "Can I shake your hand, sir?" scene. It just sort of cemented what role they were putting Daryl in.

He's pretty far from the hole in my eyes, but if the writers really buckle down, they might be able to salvage his character for me, haha! And, like I said, I don't even hate him like some do, though he is my least favorite character of the entire crew. (I just generally like everyone, it's how I roll).

[Bekki]

Unfortunately that's kind of me right now, at the moment. I used to love Daryl, but S4 was where he took the tumble. As many have said, it all kind of started with the "Can I shake your hand, sir?" scene. It just sort of cemented what role they were putting Daryl in.

He's pretty far from the hole in my eyes, but if the writers really buckle down, they might be able to salvage his character for me, haha! And, like I said, I don't even hate him like some do, though he is my least favorite character of the entire crew. (I just generally like everyone, it's how I roll).

Yea, I'm like/neutral to most of the characters (except the villains and those like porch-dick). And also, I hate Daryl 4b, he was a pointless dick when he should've stepped up. I will never defend him for man-handling Beth and encouraging her to drink (what it looked like to me). Not the way he should've been supporting her after her fathers murder. We never saw him really drink alcohol before (CDC but as it looks like that episode was ret-conned from the show) or actual violence on a girl. He got in Carol's face in S2 but never actually followed through. 5a is what I see as him realizing how he acted was very wrong and (the book) was attempting to get better.

[meesha1971]

I remember the jasper stone from last year and there a lot of talk about its meaning (and whether it had any). I don't remember that coming into play ever. It's not apples to apples but I'd hope they wouldn't do the same with the book as well.

The jasper stone was explained within the episode so there were no loose ends there. Daryl explained to Michonne that he got it for a woman at the prison who wanted to put it on her husband's grave. That was never anything more than a means to show that Daryl had taken the time to get to know people at the prison while Michonne had been avoiding making connections like that. It was more significant to Michonne realizing that she needed to stop isolating herself than anything else.

The book on dealing with childhood abuse has not been addressed at all beyond Carol seeing it. We can deduce that Daryl wants to work on those issues because he took it, but he hasn't really had a chance to actually do anything with it. The plans to rescue Beth and Carol, dealing with Beth dying, traveling to Virginia, Tyreese dying, being on the road - on foot - with no food and running out of water, being taken to ASZ and the adjustments there - all of that took precedence. And they will likely have to deal with the wolves fairly soon as well. So I don't see Daryl getting much of a chance to do anything with the book right away. But the thing with the Anderson kids - particularly with the possibility of one of them dying - would be a perfect way to show Daryl using the book to help himself and another victim of child abuse.

Unfortunately that's kind of me right now, at the moment. I used to love Daryl, but S4 was where he took the tumble. As many have said, it all kind of started with the "Can I shake your hand, sir?" scene. It just sort of cemented what role they were putting Daryl in.

He's pretty far from the hole in my eyes, but if the writers really buckle down, they might be able to salvage his character for me, haha! And, like I said, I don't even hate him like some do, though he is my least favorite character of the entire crew. (I just generally like everyone, it's how I roll).

I actually loved those scenes from the prison. Mostly because it was so awkward for Daryl and he had no idea how to deal with being so popular, but I also appreciate TPTB having a sense of humor about how popular the character is. He's not used to people praising him or appreciating him for his abilities. I think that was good for him - Daryl needs all the help he can get with boosting his low self esteem - but losing all those people has left it's mark and he's not fully recovered from that yet. With all the stuff that's happened since, it's just piled on more so he's naturally feeling depressed. But that's why I've always considered Daryl one of the most interesting characters on the show. I love the psychological aspect of his journey.

[JT85]

The jasper stone was explained within the episode so there were no loose ends there. Daryl explained to Michonne that he got it for a woman at the prison who wanted to put it on her husband's grave. That was never anything more than a means to show that Daryl had taken the time to get to know people at the prison while Michonne had been avoiding making connections like that. It was more significant to Michonne realizing that she needed to stop isolating herself than anything else.

The book on dealing with childhood abuse has not been addressed at all beyond Carol seeing it. We can deduce that Daryl wants to work on those issues because he took it, but he hasn't really had a chance to actually do anything with it. The plans to rescue Beth and Carol, dealing with Beth dying, traveling to Virginia, Tyreese dying, being on the road - on foot - with no food and running out of water, being taken to ASZ and the adjustments there - all of that took precedence. And they will likely have to deal with the wolves fairly soon as well. So I don't see Daryl getting much of a chance to do anything with the book right away. But the thing with the Anderson kids - particularly with the possibility of one of them dying - would be a perfect way to show Daryl using the book to help himself and another victim of child abuse.



I actually loved those scenes from the prison. Mostly because it was so awkward for Daryl and he had no idea how to deal with being so popular, but I also appreciate TPTB having a sense of humor about how popular the character is. He's not used to people praising him or appreciating him for his abilities. I think that was good for him - Daryl needs all the help he can get with boosting his low self esteem - but losing all those people has left it's mark and he's not fully recovered from that yet. With all the stuff that's happened since, it's just piled on more so he's naturally feeling depressed. But that's why I've always considered Daryl one of the most interesting characters on the show. I love the psychological aspect of his journey.

Love your post! I couldn't agree more with your thoughts and insight on Daryl.

[Doctor Grimes]

I actually loved those scenes from the prison. Mostly because it was so awkward for Daryl and he had no idea how to deal with being so popular, but I also appreciate TPTB having a sense of humor about how popular the character is. He's not used to people praising him or appreciating him for his abilities. I think that was good for him - Daryl needs all the help he can get with boosting his low self esteem - but losing all those people has left it's mark and he's not fully recovered from that yet. With all the stuff that's happened since, it's just piled on more so he's naturally feeling depressed. But that's why I've always considered Daryl one of the most interesting characters on the show. I love the psychological aspect of his journey.

And while I think that's what they were going for from a narrative perspective, it just reeked of fan pandering. As you said, TPTB lampshading his popularity by making him a celebrity of sorts to the Woodburians. While I get Daryl has low self-esteem, I would think by now he would've overcome it. He has done so much for his "family" (since season two) and season two was all about Carol trying to get Daryl to be more comfortable with himself and others (reiterating he wasn't like his brother). So it just felt unnecessary. If Daryl hasn't gotten it through his head in two seasons that these people respect him/care for him, then he's just dense as can be, lol. I get self-esteem isn't necessarily ever going to go away, but it does start to wear on the nerves dealing with people who are constantly down on themselves. (Trust me, one of my best friends in the whole world is like this and sometimes I just want to shake her because it becomes a full-time job boosting her confidence).

I like certain aspects of Daryl's psychological journey as well, but it's buried so far under a leather vest, motorcycle noise, and hair-dye. Like I just can't move past 1) his try-hard cool image, 2) the fan pandering, and 3) the overwhelming amount of manpain. The writers really need to work through those issues first before I start to see Daryl as more than a mascot. I think that's my problem, and many others' problem with his character since season 2-3.

[meesha1971]

And while I think that's what they were going for from a narrative perspective, it just reeked of fan pandering. As you said, TPTB lampshading his popularity by making him a celebrity of sorts to the Woodburians. While I get Daryl has low self-esteem, I would think by now he would've overcome it. He has done so much for his "family" (since season two) and season two was all about Carol trying to get Daryl to be more comfortable with himself and others (reiterating he wasn't like his brother). So it just felt unnecessary. If Daryl hasn't gotten it through his head in two seasons that these people respect him/care for him, then he's just dense as can be, lol. I get self-esteem isn't necessarily ever going to go away, but it does start to wear on the nerves dealing with people who are constantly down on themselves. (Trust me, one of my best friends in the whole world is like this and sometimes I just want to shake her lol it becomes a full-time job boosting her confidence).

I like certain aspects of Daryl's psychological journey as well, but it's buried so far under a leather vest, motorcycle noise, and hair-dye. Like I just can't move past 1) his try-hard cool image, 2) the fan pandering, and 3) the overwhelming amount of manpain. The writers really need to work through those issues first before I start to see Daryl as more than a mascot. I think that's my problem, and many others' problem with his character since season 2-3.

Well, it can certainly be frustrating, but it is realistic. Daryl's issues with self esteem are deeply rooted in the trauma of his abuse as well as his background so that's not something that a person would just get over. Carol couldn't help Daryl with that because she has similar issues and comes from a similar background. She doesn't fit into the same category as the type of people who judged him and mocked him all his life. Daryl got closer to the core group emotionally, but he was always very careful not to tell them much about himself. Some things are obvious - poor redneck family, criminal brother, etc... But he doesn't talk about being abused or how he just followed Merle around and considered himself nothing. Not even with Carol. Daryl kept those things to himself because he believes there are conditions to his acceptance. If they knew the truth, maybe they wouldn't like him as much or consider him family. That's why his time with Beth was good for him - not romantically - please nobody go there. lol But Beth did fall into that category - middle class background with a happy, loving family. Daryl expects people like that to automatically look down on him so it was a good first step for him to realize that there was at least one person from that category who didn't. But it was only a first step because Beth was just one person.

I do think Daryl has reached the point where he accepts that the group cares about him and will consider him family regardless. He's realized that he's not the same person he was before and he's shown that he is trying to deal with his demons - i.e. taking the book about dealing with childhood abuse. But ASZ is a throwback for Daryl because it is the complete opposite of everything he knew in his life. Now he's faced with an entire community filled with the type of people that always looked down on him before - and some of these people are likely to look down on him now because they've been sheltered and still have a lot of the same pre-ZA thought processes. The group is his - and he'll always have that - but he feels like a square peg being forced into a round hole at ASZ. This isn't what he's used to - and he's not going to adjust to that overnight. That's why the burgeoning friendship between Daryl and Aaron is so interesting. Similar to Beth, Aaron comes from that type of middle class background. But he also knows what it's like to be judged and looked down on so he can empathize with Daryl as well. And it plays well into the type of prejudices that Daryl was raised with - which is what made him building friendships with people like Glenn and Michonne so interesting. He's still growing and learning so that's a good thing. But it will take time for Daryl to really overcome all of his issues - and even with that, it's not something that just goes away. Doubts and fears like that always have a way of creeping up on you - you just have to learn how to remind yourself that doubts and fears are not always based in logic or reality.

Daryl didn't wear the vest at first and he started out driving a truck. The vest and the motorcycle are connections to Merle so that doesn't bother me. It's just a way for him to remember his brother and, to be honest, I like that. Mazzara glossed over Daryl mourning the loss of his brother so it's nice to have something that shows Daryl feels the loss. And as much as people complain about motorcycles being noisy - cars and trucks aren't exactly silent either. A motorcycle does have advantages - like good gas mileage and maneuverability. Daryl's wardrobe isn't all that cool or hip outside the vest - he goes for the grungy look. Of course, on the road, all of them had the grungy look. lol But even that comes from what he knows. There are a lot of Daryl types in my family - you should see my family reunion. Daryl and Merle's everywhere. lol And they go for the ripped off sleeves, ratty pants, and hunting boots. Cammo seems to be a popular choice with them too. I don't really know why that is, but Daryl's wardrobe is accurate to his background.

As for the fan pandering - it applies to all the characters. They've all had their superhero moments. Some more believable than others. Truthfully, Daryl hasn't done anything that really seemed impossible to me by fiction standards - particularly with his background. Is throwing a grenade into a tank really much different than Tom Hanks teaching soldiers how to take out tanks with homemade bombs they made out of their socks? Glenn killed a walker while duck taped to a chair and somehow managed to escape the four walkers piled on him after being shot. Rick shoves a gun up inside a walkers head to shoot it from the inside out - and can bite a person's throat out. Maggie killed lots of walkers with a roadside sign. Michonne taught herself samurai sword techniques and decimated over 20 walkers surrounding her by herself - and, according to some, was capable of levitating in season 3. Hershel had his unlimited ammo cheat (editing goof, but still). Lori took out a couple of walkers with a tire rim. Carol channeled the spirit of Rambo to blow up Terminus with a bottle rocket. A bottle rocket - that bears repeating. Tyreese fought his way out of the middle of a massive herd with only a hammer - without even a scratch. That's all about putting some cool, gory special effects into the action scenes and they've done it with everyone at some point or other.

[Mia]

Yea, I'm like/neutral to most of the characters (except the villains and those like porch-dick). And also, I hate Daryl 4b, he was a pointless dick when he should've stepped up. I will never defend him for man-handling Beth and encouraging her to drink (what it looked like to me). Not the way he should've been supporting her after her fathers murder. We never saw him really drink alcohol before (CDC but as it looks like that episode was ret-conned from the show) or actual violence on a girl. He got in Carol's face in S2 but never actually followed through. 5a is what I see as him realizing how he acted was very wrong and (the book) was attempting to get better.

Amen to all of this.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, it can certainly be frustrating, but it is realistic. Daryl's issues with self esteem are deeply rooted in the trauma of his abuse as well as his background so that's not something that a person would just get over. Carol couldn't help Daryl with that because she has similar issues and comes from a similar background. She doesn't fit into the same category as the type of people who judged him and mocked him all his life. Daryl got closer to the core group emotionally, but he was always very careful not to tell them much about himself. Some things are obvious - poor redneck family, criminal brother, etc... But he doesn't talk about being abused or how he just followed Merle around and considered himself nothing. Not even with Carol. Daryl kept those things to himself because he believes there are conditions to his acceptance. If they knew the truth, maybe they wouldn't like him as much or consider him family. That's why his time with Beth was good for him - not romantically - please nobody go there. lol But Beth did fall into that category - middle class background with a happy, loving family. Daryl expects people like that to automatically look down on him so it was a good first step for him to realize that there was at least one person from that category who didn't. But it was only a first step because Beth was just one person.

I do think Daryl has reached the point where he accepts that the group cares about him and will consider him family regardless. He's realized that he's not the same person he was before and he's shown that he is trying to deal with his demons - i.e. taking the book about dealing with childhood abuse. But ASZ is a throwback for Daryl because it is the complete opposite of everything he knew in his life. Now he's faced with an entire community filled with the type of people that always looked down on him before - and some of these people are likely to look down on him now because they've been sheltered and still have a lot of the same pre-ZA thought processes. The group is his - and he'll always have that - but he feels like a square peg being forced into a round hole at ASZ. This isn't what he's used to - and he's not going to adjust to that overnight. That's why the burgeoning friendship between Daryl and Aaron is so interesting. Similar to Beth, Aaron comes from that type of middle class background. But he also knows what it's like to be judged and looked down on so he can empathize with Daryl as well. And it plays well into the type of prejudices that Daryl was raised with - which is what made him building friendships with people like Glenn and Michonne so interesting. He's still growing and learning so that's a good thing. But it will take time for Daryl to really overcome all of his issues - and even with that, it's not something that just goes away. Doubts and fears like that always have a way of creeping up on you - you just have to learn how to remind yourself that doubts and fears are not always based in logic or reality.

Daryl didn't wear the vest at first and he started out driving a truck. The vest and the motorcycle are connections to Merle so that doesn't bother me. It's just a way for him to remember his brother and, to be honest, I like that. Mazzara glossed over Daryl mourning the loss of his brother so it's nice to have something that shows Daryl feels the loss. And as much as people complain about motorcycles being noisy - cars and trucks aren't exactly silent either. A motorcycle does have advantages - like good gas mileage and maneuverability. Daryl's wardrobe isn't all that cool or hip outside the vest - he goes for the grungy look. Of course, on the road, all of them had the grungy look. lol But even that comes from what he knows. There are a lot of Daryl types in my family - you should see my family reunion. Daryl and Merle's everywhere. lol And they go for the ripped off sleeves, ratty pants, and hunting boots. Cammo seems to be a popular choice with them too. I don't really know why that is, but Daryl's wardrobe is accurate to his background.

As for the fan pandering - it applies to all the characters. They've all had their superhero moments. Some more believable than others. Truthfully, Daryl hasn't done anything that really seemed impossible to me by fiction standards - particularly with his background. Is throwing a grenade into a tank really much different than Tom Hanks teaching soldiers how to take out tanks with homemade bombs they made out of their socks? Glenn killed a walker while duck taped to a chair and somehow managed to escape the four walkers piled on him after being shot. Rick shoves a gun up inside a walkers head to shoot it from the inside out - and can bite a person's throat out. Maggie killed lots of walkers with a roadside sign. Michonne taught herself samurai sword techniques and decimated over 20 walkers surrounding her by herself - and, according to some, was capable of levitating in season 3. Hershel had his unlimited ammo cheat (editing goof, but still). Lori took out a couple of walkers with a tire rim. Carol channeled the spirit of Rambo to blow up Terminus with a bottle rocket. A bottle rocket - that bears repeating. Tyreese fought his way out of the middle of a massive herd with only a hammer - without even a scratch. That's all about putting some cool, gory special effects into the action scenes and they've done it with everyone at some point or other.

The only thing i disagree with is Beth did look down on him at first. When she thought he had been to prison. She thought that for the way he looked and acted. Glad he proved her wrong. Glad she helped him realize he was ok.

[meesha1971]

Amen to all of this.

- - - Updated - - -


The only thing i disagree with is Beth did look down on him at first. When she thought he had been to prison. She thought that for the way he looked and acted. Glad he proved her wrong. Glad she helped him realize he was ok.

I never got the impression that Beth looked down on him because of that assumption - she actually didn't think that was a big deal because she knew Hershel had gone to jail before he had quit drinking. Daryl definitely took it that way, but Beth was surprised by his reaction. But that was part of the process and Beth explained herself better after they had both vented and calmed down. It was their conversation afterward that had the most impact on Daryl. Beth showed him that she could accept his past and feel sympathy for him because of the things he went through and still be proud of the man he is making himself into now. More so because of all he has had to overcome to do that. Daryl needed that and it needed to come from somebody like Beth because she was the last person he would expect to understand him or believe in him. Daryl made his own assumptions about her and learned he was wrong as well. That wasn't an insta-cure, but it was a good first step to Daryl dealing with his demons.