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  1. Back To Top    #31
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    Banned User AndRick's Avatar
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    I hate NR and I hate Daryl now because I can't tell the difference between Norman and Daryl anymore, lol. But this is I agree! The problem is in the fandom. I think that it would be a stretch to say that Caryl/Carick wouldn't work because Daryl and Rick are younger.

  2. Back To Top    #32
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    Governor HateForTheMasses's Avatar

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    The ageism against Carol doesnt appear to be too difficult to explain. It's quite obvious actually. It's called
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    What does Carol/MMB really give her critics to work with. Those that criticize her acting just look like jackasses that wouldn't know good acting if it was sitting naked in front of them. The woman is a master of her craft. She doesn't make it easy to jab her with childish off screen antics like some of the actors on this show do. Her character development is great. Her sometimes controversial actions are something that I do criticize on occasion but it's never without it being well known that those actions are what makes her character interesting. What does this really leave? Jealousy that she gets more screen time than others and shots at her age and appearance. Those that debate her actions are able to provide a solid argument sometimes. Those that attack her age and appearance look like the kids on the playground that have nothing better than the basic "Your mama" jokes.

  3. Back To Top    #33
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    🌻🌼🌺🌷🌸 Mia ♥'s Avatar


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    Quote Originally Posted by HateForTheMasses View Post
    The ageism against Carol doesnt appear to be too difficult to explain. It's quite obvious actually. It's called
    Spoiler Spoiler:


    What does Carol/MMB really give her critics to work with. Those that criticize her acting just look like jackasses that wouldn't know good acting if it was sitting naked in front of them. The woman is a master of her craft. She doesn't make it easy to jab her with childish off screen antics like some of the actors on this show do. Her character development is great. Her sometimes controversial actions are something that I do criticize on occasion but it's never without it being well known that those actions are what makes her character interesting. What does this really leave? Jealousy that she gets more screen time than others and shots at her age and appearance. Those that debate her actions are able to provide a solid argument sometimes. Those that attack her age and appearance look like the kids on the playground that have nothing better than the basic "Your mama" jokes.
    Preach brother.

  4. Back To Top    #34
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    Squirrel Hunter Jango627's Avatar
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    I don't think that a show with older female characters who save the male characters (as both michonne and Carol have done) can be accused of ageism. Both Carol and michonne are seen as equals in every way to their male co-survivors, which is way better than wanting to get in their pants. I'm not a Carol fan but Melissa looks amazing for her age and michonne/Danai is absolutely stunning. I think as @Beatrice said earlier, their looks and age have nothing to do with why Carol and Michonne have not changed their Facebook status to 'in a relationship'. To put it short and sweet....michonne takes a very long time to trust and Carol is afraid to feel. These are what is standing in the way for them, not age or looks.

  5. Back To Top    #35
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    Token Black Guy Lone Wolf's Avatar
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    I don't think ageism has anything to do with Carol. I don't know how Michonne got dragged into this discussion, but her age isn't what I have a problem with on this show and love. It's more race with her and how backwards television is still. I don't think Carol is being held back at all because of age, I would even say that Carol in the relationship department has been treated a lot better than Michonne.

    At least Carol still gets flirted on by the men on the show, but no man looks at Michonne at all and I don't find that realistic.

    Just my two cents. I'm too tired to elaborate more.

    I think Carol is treated a lot better than the younger females on the show especially Michonne and Maggie, so I don't see the problem.

  6. Back To Top    #36
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    Banned User Doctor Grimes's Avatar


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    I do not believe the show itself is ageist at all. In fact, I applaud The Walking Dead for showcasing a woman over the age of 45 just being. I am so relieved one of the most well-written and compelling characters on this show (quite possibly the best written and certainly one of the best performed) is an older woman with grey hair. It goes to show that women past the Hollywood expiration date of 35 can be marketable, can be fun, can be sexy, can be heroic, can be human. That they can be a draw to the #1 scripted show. It's such a breath of fresh air.

    But ageism is at play in some parts of this fandom. I've certainly seen my fair share of some people lobbing ageist remarks about Melissa McBride/Carol. From diminishing her capabilities solely on the basis of her age, to the fact that she's "too old" to play opposite male characters like Daryl or Rick in a romance. She's been referred to as a "mother" figure to men closer to her own age than the age of her canonical on-screen child (Sophia) -- men that she couldn't possibly have birthed.

    I do believe this is a result of societal conditioning. We've been shown consistently older men still being sexy and suave and roping younger women (sometimes half their age), while older women get shoved into the margins. To play mothers to younger starring characters, grandmothers, or minor supporting roles. They're rarely given the chance to be shown doing anything active -- let alone driving a plot.

    Vulture has had a few articles about this phenomenon in Hollywood of older men roping younger and younger romantic partners, while young Hollywood women are paired with older and older men. It's disturbing and disheartening, and I hope it's a trend that dies.

    I do love that this is becoming something scorned and mocked. Tina Fey and Amy Poehler recently did a skit on SNL about this very phenomenon that is hilarious and worth a watch:

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    To everyone who say awful, hurtful things about older actresses... you'll get old too, it's inevitable. You WILL get old. Karma is a biatch. And you're gonna wish you look half as good as those actresses that you denigrate and insult.

  8. Back To Top    #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonia View Post
    To everyone who say awful, hurtful things about older actresses... you'll get old too, it's inevitable. You WILL get old. Karma is a biatch. And you're gonna wish you look half as good as those actresses that you denigrate and insult.
    I hope someone calls them "old" too, or even goes as far to say that their significant other should be with someone younger and prettier.

  9. Back To Top    #39
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    Samurai Kuroko's Avatar
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    This thread has been an interesting read so far! I'd like to bring up a topic of discussion here. I'm not really a Carol fan, but I'd like to hear some Carol fans' thoughts on this. Baring the offensive comments about MMB's looks/age, I was reminded of an all to occurring trope that occurs in books, television, movies, anime etc. This is the concept of the "Team Mom". Usually in an ensemble cast there is one certain character that is labeled as the kind of protector of the rest of the group etc..

    You can read more about it here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TeamMom

    In the same website I found that Carol was listed as the "Team Mom" for the group. Do you agree with this? Obviously like wikipedia, anyone with an account can edit pages. Do you think this label is offensive to Carol as a character or even MMB? I can see how it would be offensive considering some of the comments and the sensitivity of the issue, but often times with this trope age is not an issue. To put it in perspective Rick is labeled as the "Team Dad" on that site. What is everyone's thoughts?

  10. Back To Top    #40
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    The ageism bullshit has a couple of roots: fertility and our association with it throughout history. And religion - the purity of a woman deeming her worth. We of course have added our own levels of bullshit to this in terms of the idea of beauty and media. Lots and lots of patriarchal sexism for the win.

    The 'Carol is too old for Daryl'/'Carol is Daryl's mom' comments are stupid. Legit stupid. They lack intelligence and highlight a lack of human experience and understanding ("only a mother kisses someone on the forehead."? What kind of shit relationships are these people having?) I also personally never got the need of some people to label and box relationships as familial. Don't people have meaningful friendships with people of the opposite sex? Why does it need to be a mother or sister if it's not viewed romantically? Familial relationships, as people tend to understand them, do not involve flirting and the suggestion of sex. And "family" doesn't actually equate to sibling bond and a "familial bond" as people tend to understand the term. The characters themselves are an example of this (Team Family is a showcase of a family of much more than sibling bonds...and yet.) While I have no issue with people who don't see Caryl as necessarily romantic, some of the familial comments made about their relationship make me want to dismiss entire viewpoints, as I see little of worth in such comments, in my ever so judgemental opinion.


    Having said all that, I agree with the consensus that specifically for Carol, it is a fan-limited thing. I don't think her age has to do with the lack of a canon Caryl, otherwise why show their relationship at all? I'm of the opinion that the lack of Caryl at this stage has to do with a conscious realisation that Carol is worth more as an individual character. She's been upgraded in terms of main character, I would say. There's certain individual storylines that are simply easier to do when the character is single. Once there's the relationship, it needs to be written into every little thing.
    While the show absolutely could do great individual storylines whilst in a relationship, the show doesn't tend to generally. Glaggie have suffered with it. And the show's pattern with relationships is one new character with an established because someone's going to die. They stick to that formula more often than not.

    If Carol has been upped to "unkillables", if even temporarily, it means even more so they can drag out the Caryl relationship cuz they can keep the audience's interest with the possibility still hanging and do it later on - it's a permanent option, whenever. Especially given how easy it is to reestablish their bond, as season 4 and the reunion hug showed. It doesn't need to be constantly maintained; it exists, the end. While it's maybe not satisfactory for the audience (I wish for so many more relationship scenes period from the show), it is the way it is.
    And with the show the way it is, as much as I would also like canon Caryl, I'll take the offset of Carol as the awesome individual character and her awesome progression. I especially will take the offset because...Caryl are already paired. I do want to see the unconventional relationship with the main sex-symbol-appreciated male and the middle-aged, short grey-haired female actually happen. I DO think that's important representation and awesome representation and as it's rare, worthwhile representation, but I think it's already present. They ARE paired together. They have merch together, as a pairing. The interviews come with questions about the other. Their care of each other - and outwith the rest of the group - has been shown repeatedly - with affection, respect, trust and teasing.

    And I think that's there to grow on whenever, unless one of them gets into a romantic relationship with someone else... Well, unless Daryl gets into a romantic relationship with someone else. It sort of pains me to say it but given the subject matter as a whole and it's problematic tendency, for an audience, it would moreso be decided by the male part of the pairing and what he was doing with someone else. Reality is it's been 6 seasons and they've chosen not to put him with someone else.


    With the Walking Dead being so popular and covering so many demographics on an international level, I have no fucking idea what percentage of the audience are actually ageist on this. Couldn't even start to guess. You'll always get idiots and you'll always get ignorant twats - and they tend to like to be quite vocal, often confusing the actual amount. But given the promotional choices and merch and such, I can't imagine the pairing of Caryl and the potential of it - or Carol as a strong female, middle-aged character - is an issue to that many. It's clearly not harming the show.
    I think something specific with their relationship is that the pairing has been there since Carol picked up that axe. The Daryl and Carol that the audience know have longterm also been "Carol and Daryl", in whatever form people understand it. It's been a constant. It's woven into them as characters and how we've gotten to know them as characters.


    I think the show does well on this subject, really. Carol's awesome and MMB is highly regarded. The choice of gender switch for Deanna, I think was pretty significant. One of the early things I really appreciated about the Walking Dead was that it was about a group of adults. I still feel that way.

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