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    Comic-Dwight, Show-Dwight, and the Group's Forgiveness

    I've mentioned my thoughts on this briefly in other threads and am not sure if this is entirely the correct location for me to post this (since it's about the comic and the show,) but since I'm going to mention comic-plots that haven't happened yet on the show, I figured the comic-characters section was the best place:

    So we know in the comics that Dwight kills Abraham... by shooting him through the face with an arrow. It was a very sudden, unexpected moment - Abraham never knew he was in any danger. He was just talking and then there was an arrow through his face. Dwight did not kill him in self-defense or in the defense of any of Dwight's friends. (It was a sort of revenge, I guess, but still not okay - Abraham wasn't even among the group who killed Dwight's men - it would be like me punching your sister because you pissed me off... Not your sister's fault.) He just straight up sneaked up behind him and murdered him. Somehow, Dwight eventually won the forgiveness of the group and now works with them. They do not care that he murdered their friend. Kind of seems like the group did not value Abraham very much at all...

    Now, sometimes I feel like the writing for the comic isn't held to such a high standard as the writing for the show. Nobody really expects comic-writing to be brilliant, so maybe we can overlook that everyone pretty much ignores the fact that Dwight murdered Abraham. While I think the choice of having Dwight become friends with the group without having anyone harbor any resentment toward him doesn't make sense, what I'm really wondering about is how they are going to rationalize this on the show, or if they even are...

    No matter who Dwight murders on the show, do you think he can reasonably join Rick's group later? Can the show-versions of the characters forgive Dwight as easily as the comic-versions did? Could the show somehow give Dwight a better excuse for murder? Or perhaps they just won't go the direction of having the group welcome him with open arms afterward? They could still accept Dwight's help later, I suppose, without forgiving him and becoming buddies afterward... There's a difference too, between the group saying "We'll help each other and then go our separate ways," vs. "We'll help each other and we're all best friends now. It's okay that you murdered our friend."

    The closest thing they've had to this in the show thus far was Merle - who tried and failed to kill Glenn and Michonne - so he's already not as bad as Dwight, since no one important died on his account... AND certain members of the group STILL never forgave him... and Tara, who worked with The Governor - but she never actually killed anyone and stood down once she realized The Governor was wrong. And Carol, I guess... who killed for other reasons... It is actually still surprising to me that she was forgiven by the group too though... At least her murders were intended to be helpful instead of revenge. I still think the audience only forgave her because we don't care about Karen and David. If she'd killed Glenn and Maggie instead, for instance, if they were both sick, we wouldn't have supported it... So I get why the audience forgives her. I do not get why the other characters do...

    But Carol is also already friends with everyone. She didn't shoot Karen and David through their faces while they were out walking around - she figured they were probably going to die anyway and thought killing them quickly might spare lives. I do get it, and maybe the group does too (and again, it helps that she was already their friend.) But how are they going to forgive Dwight - a man they aren't friends with yet - Daryl already hates him...

    Am I forgetting something from the comics that somehow made Dwight killing Abraham okay with everyone?

    Rick accepting Dwight into the group would be the same if he'd accepted Gareth into the group... Only even worse, since Gareth was killing to survive, whereas Dwight was revenge-killing an innocent man.

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    "Now, sometimes I feel like the writing for the comic isn't held to such a high standard as the writing for the show."

    Yeah, that's why the comic is an Eisner winning series and is widely acclaimed for its great writing and the unpredictable nature and dark tone said writing has created within the book. Yet, the show perceived as nothing but a popcorn flick within the TV industry and by comic fans like myself. Yep, the writing sure is held to a higher standard in the show... no fallacy to be found in that statement.


    Now, with that out of the way, it is not that hard to believe that the group in the comic has accepted Dwight despite his killing of Dwight. Let's not forget how Rick basically fucked things up in Alexandria when he first arrived in the comic, but the town still forgave him and came around to him as their leader. Besides, without Dwight, Negan would have won the war against Rick had Dwight coated the bolt he shot Rick with in zombie guts. Not to mention with him convincing all the remaining Saviors to side with Rick, probably preventing the deaths of dozens of Rick's people. Don't forget, Laura pretty much told Dwight that if he gave up Savior leadership they would march on Alexandria and demand Negan be released. As awesome as Abe was, Dwight's influence during the war is arguably the factor that caused Negan's downfall and there is no chance in Hell Abraham could have accomplished this on his own.

    To put it simply: Dwight is simply too vital to the continued prosperity of Rick's community structure to kill and I'm sure the majority of the group, be it begrudgingly or not, have accepted this long ago.

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    Well he ultimately did aid the group in taking down Negan in the comics, didn't he? With the poison arrow fakeout and what not.

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    I'm still not feeling it. If Negan helps Rick beat The Whisperers, can he be totally forgiven and join the group too then? Being helpful just erases everything you've done wrong?

    I realize people here love Dwight, and that's fine. I'm just trying to understand how the group is so forgiving. If someone murdered my friend and was then like, "I'll help you do your job and help you get promoted and make your life easier now." I wouldn't forgive them... I might be willing to take their help, because it benefits me, but I wouldn't be their friend... Maybe I'd pretend to be as long a they are still helping me, but as soon as I'm done with them, I'd remember that they murdered my friend and I'd tell them to fuck off. Maybe the group is just using Dwight. I can understand how certain people might be able to forgive someone who murdered their friend, but I cannot understand how an entire group could be so forgiving.

    I also think it's a disservice to Abraham to have everyone so willing to befriend his murderer. Think of if it had been another character. If Dwight killed Michonne or Carl, would everyone be friends with him? Could those ones be forgiven too? If you don't think so, why not? Is Abraham just not worth very much? Maybe it does just boil down to the worth of the various characters in the eyes of the audience. We don't care that Carol murdered Karen and David, because we didn't give a shit about them. And we're meant to not care that Dwight murdered Abraham because he was kind of being a dick to Rosita and wasn't all that likable at the time of his death.

    It'll be interesting to see who he kills in the show and how the writers attempt to rationalize the group forgiving him for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan View Post
    I'm still not feeling it. If Negan helps Rick beat The Whisperers, can he be totally forgiven and join the group too then? Being helpful just erases everything you've done wrong?

    I realize people here love Dwight, and that's fine. I'm just trying to understand how the group is so forgiving. If someone murdered my friend and was then like, "I'll help you do your job and help you get promoted and make your life easier now." I wouldn't forgive them... I might be willing to take their help, because it benefits me, but I wouldn't be their friend... Maybe I'd pretend to be as long a they are still helping me, but as soon as I'm done with them, I'd remember that they murdered my friend and I'd tell them to fuck off. Maybe the group is just using Dwight. I can understand how certain people might be able to forgive someone who murdered their friend, but I cannot understand how an entire group could be so forgiving.

    I also think it's a disservice to Abraham to have everyone so willing to befriend his murderer. Think of if it had been another character. If Dwight killed Michonne or Carl, would everyone be friends with him? Could those ones be forgiven too? If you don't think so, why not? Is Abraham just not worth very much? Maybe it does just boil down to the worth of the various characters in the eyes of the audience. We don't care that Carol murdered Karen and David, because we didn't give a shit about them. And we're meant to not care that Dwight murdered Abraham because he was kind of being a dick to Rosita and wasn't all that likable at the time of his death.

    It'll be interesting to see who he kills in the show and how the writers attempt to rationalize the group forgiving him for it.
    You're acting like they forgave him just a couple of issues after he killed Abraham; in actuality it was around 20 issues later and quite a bit of time had passed in universe. Also, Abraham was only close to Rick's pre-Alexandria group (and Holly); otherwise, he was just an acquaintance to the others in Alexandria and a no-name in Hilltop/The Kingdom. Hell, most of the people living there probably don't even know Dwight killed Abe. Instead, to them at least, he is the guy who turned on Negan and convinced the rest of The Saviors to do the same so the war and death that came with it could be brought to a conclusion. Not to mention making The Saviors a key part of the trading route (walker duty) and being the man in charge of helping to prepare them to fight off The Whispers, who have killed numerous members of each community already.

    In fact, when you think of it that way, it would make the characters look like overly emotional imbeciles who can't see the bigger picture and would completely contradict Rick's current character, who is wanting to reestablish society, hence why he didn't even kill Negan when he had the chance. Moreover, using Negan as a counterargument is nonsensical, as he was the man behind The Saviors and, in Dwight's case, had subjected him to just as much emotional trauma as the other communities. He makes Dwight look like a patron saint by comparison.

    In the show, I fully expect the group to kill him after he helps them, as Rick and co. are continuously portrayed as retards who wouldn't even be able to trust a three year old toddler, let alone see the bigger picture.

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    Yeah... Like I said, Abraham wasn't worth much to most of the members of the group. I guess the characters in the comics are nowhere near as close as they are on the show, as a whole group. On the show, they seem to consider each other family. In the comics perhaps they consider each other chess pieces, and Dwight is a valuable chess piece, no matter which other chess piece he took out previously.

    Human beings do usually have emotions, by the way... Lots of rational, intelligent human beings would be reluctant or even potentially 100% emotionally incapable of "seeing the bigger picture" if doing so meant ignoring that the person who murdered their friend or community member went unpunished and even became a regular member of the community shortly afterward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan View Post
    Yeah... Like I said, Abraham wasn't worth much to most of the members of the group. I guess the characters in the comics are nowhere near as close as they are on the show, as a whole group. On the show, they seem to consider each other family. In the comics perhaps they consider each other chess pieces, and Dwight is a valuable chess piece, no matter which other chess piece he took out previously.

    Human beings do usually have emotions, by the way... Lots of rational, intelligent human beings would be reluctant or even potentially 100% emotionally incapable of "seeing the bigger picture" if doing so meant ignoring that the person who murdered their friend or community member went unpunished and even became a regular member of the community shortly afterward.
    Except there is not "group" in the comics anymore. The original pre-Alexandria members are all spread out among larger communities, The Saviors being one of those. Dwight isn't exactly a member of Alexandria and I don't see why Rick valuing him as an ally automatically indicates he was never close to Abraham, or any of the other group for that matter. Hell, Eugene still seems to harbor a grudge against him, as did Holly and Rosita before their deaths. Not to mention, it is pretty clear Kirkman is trying to show Rick's transformation into a master manipulator as of late under the tutelage of Negan, so it makes sense he is going to use Dwight's talents to his advantage. Others like Maggie and Michonne (she is obviously going to move to the Kingdom to take control) have bigger issues to deal with than petty revenge on a guy who did just as much to remove Negan from power as they did.

    Also, don't forget that Dwight was just following orders and as far as he knew, Rick's people had ruthlessly slaughtered The Saviors group that had confronted Rick and co. after they left from Hilltop. So, in reality, it's not like he brutally beat him to death or anything, he just did it in revenge for the death of HIS people and to satisfy Negan, who detested him by the way.

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    Doing something shitty "because someone told you to" doesn't make it okay. That's why (on the show) Rick and the group murdering all the sleeping Saviors was really fucked up. Killing people you know nothing about because someone else told you you should is extremely irresponsible and immoral... And surely Dwight was aware that Negan and the Saviors aren't the nicest people in the world. If Negan said "These people attacked our people for no reason! It was so brutal and terrible! Please go do something! They're awful!" I doubt Dwight thought, "wow. Poor little Negan and the others. They got bullied and attacked for no reason for sure. I know these people. They are so sweet. Definitely 100% victims in this situation." Dwight was working with people who he knew were awful. I suppose I can almost get it if he did their dirty work to keep himself alive.

    The desire for revenge doesn't seem petty to me, considering an innocent man was murdered by this guy.

    If the whole deal is that Rick is just manipulating Dwight and using him, then that's fair enough. Rick hasn't really seemed like the "moral hero" type for a very long time, so I guess that would explain it. I guess a lot of the other characters either don't care, are somewhat ignorant of the situation, or they are just too scared to speak up. I'd probably be scared to question Rick too at this point.

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    That's it though, Dwight didn't do it for revenge, he did it because Negan made him do it for revenge. He was terrified of the man. I'm going to throw in some quotes.

    "Negan has my wife! I had to do as he asked or he'd hurt her! You have no idea what I've risked coming here--what he's capable of..."


    "...I was a coward. And I did a lot of terrible things I can't take back. But I can help you end his reign of terror...Free all the people existing under his thrall. I can make things right. If you just trust me."


    Dwight wasn't an evil man. He was backed up into a corner, afraid for himself and for her. He obeyed his every command while hoping for a day he could realistically strike against Negan.

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    We'll all just have to agree to disagree.

    I don't feel that murdering an innocent person because a threatening person asks you to makes it okay. It makes it better than just murdering them to be a dick, but it's definitely not something I could forgive, and I figure a lot of real people, with the bias of having known and loved their friend and the inability to judge the situation objectively due to that bias, would not want to just let it go. If someone killed my friend, and later they were like "I had to because this crazy guy would maybe hurt/kill me or my wife if I didn't." I'd be like, "I understand kinda. You were under duress, so I get why you did it. At least you had a sort of reason that wasn't 100% dickish, but I don't want to be around you. You decided my friend's life was worth less than yours and/or your wife's, and that offends me, because to me, my friend's life is worth more than you and your wife's, because I do not know you, and I did know my friend."

    I guess Rick and company think more like you guys do than like I do.

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