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    🌻🌼🌺🌷🌸 Mia ♥'s Avatar


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    Carol-All-Out-Debate-Thread-(LOVE-AND-HATE-Let-s-Have-a-Mature-Discussion)-7

    This is the continuation of this threadCarol-All-Out-Debate-Thread-(LOVE-AND-HATE-Let-s-Have-a-Mature-Discussion)-6
    Lets keep it classy people and have fun with this one.

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    Group Leader Gia Dixon's Avatar
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    I wanted to quote someone from the old thread, but I can't. Darn.

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    Zombie Hoarder JamieLee84's Avatar
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    It is pretty laughable how some Carol haters are so dramatic and Blame Carol for everything under the sun. People are responsible for their own actions. It's just

    A little boy came to her and asked for a gun to protect his mother from his drunk abusive father who beats her into unconsciousness. Help he hasn't gotten from those in his community who know about this and turn a blind eye because THEY need his skills. Safe zone? Not for him. Yes, Carol scared him with the story, but his dad clearly scared him more because he turned to her for help.

    Carol, who is sensitive to the issue and wants to help takes this info to Rick. After telling him the story of Jessie being unconscious, she says if walkers hadn't gotten Ed she wouldn't be here. She feared for her life with him and was lucky enough to be rid of him. She says "you're gonna have to kill him" because she knows there is NO WAY in hell that Pete was going to go down without a fight. An alcoholic controlling abuser isn't going to take lightly being separated from "his property" and live happily ever after. No, if someone tries to intervene, it's very likely he will lash out and try to hurt or kill that person.He almost killed his wife, someone he vowed to love and protect, so clearly he wouldn't hesitate killing a stranger who he feels is in his territory and his business. As predicted, Pete tried to kill Rick, and Rick had to kill him.

    I'm sick of hearing this poor Pete bullshit. Carol was just looking out for a child and woman being terrorized. Did she taunt him and make him mad? Yes, but his actions are what put him in that position. He's a grown ass man, and he can't handle a little bit of mental abuse but is able to dish out physical abuse to the extent he did? Well too damn bad. There's a reason they showed Rick and Jesse talking as the last thing Pete sees before he flips out. There's a reason he says "You're not one of us" and goes after RICK. Cut that visit Carol made, and it wouldn't change the outcome. He is still separated from his family and witnesses the man who put him there with his wife. He's fucking flipping out with or without Carol's comments. Get real!

    If you want to talk about right and wrong, what about Deanna?! She knows Jessie is getting beaten and that the children may or may not be as well, or at least have to witness it, but she does nothing because it's not HER family suffering. Carol and Rick cared more about her people than she did. Oh but of course, the moment her family is harmed, kill the bastard. Just kill him right there in front of everyone, because he killed MY husband.

    If a criminal were being hauled off to jail and there was someone taunting them or telling them how big of a piece of shit they are, and the person gets out and kills someone, who is getting charged with that murder? Maybe the person who committed it? Pete is responsible for his own fate. I don't care what Carol said to him. He's a grown ass man who made his own life choices. Be a man. Suck it up. Do the right thing and don't dish it out if you can't handle a fraction of it being dished out on you. Poor Pete.....that mean little lady called you out for the piece of shit you really are.

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    Sharpshooter Bork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamieLee84 View Post
    I'm sick of hearing this poor Pete bullshit.
    How can you be sick of hearing what you haven't heard? More overemotional nonsense and straw-manning as usual. Next thing you know, Carol will kill Morgan and her fans will justify it as a response to domestic violence.

    I'll address @booksrbetter and the rest of this later.

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    Governor HateForTheMasses's Avatar

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    How would everyone feel about Tyreese had he chosen to kill Carol at the end of The Grove? Obviously, Carol saw what she had done as being bad enough that she saw death as a fair punishment.

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    Samurai booksrbetter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HateForTheMasses View Post
    How would everyone feel about Tyreese had he chosen to kill Carol at the end of The Grove? Obviously, Carol saw what she had done as being bad enough that she saw death as a fair punishment.
    I remember watching Carol push that revolver over to Tyreese. She was certainly ready to accept his punishment. It has been harder for her to accept his forgivenesss.
    He could have killed Carol and no one would ever know, but Tyreese was on a higher moral plane. He never devolved into doing terrible things for survival. Killing Carol would have destroyed him. So even if no one would have blamed him for killing Carol? He couldn't do it because he recognized that she was punished for what she did. She had to live with it.
    Personally I think Tyreese killing Carol would have been a false note. He just wanted to put it in the back of his mind and move on. He didn't want to live with the guilt.
    He could have told the others and let them punish Carol and he chose not to. His actions could have been the reason for at least seven threads on this forum with no consensus in sight.

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    Sharpshooter Bork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HateForTheMasses View Post
    How would everyone feel about Tyreese had he chosen to kill Carol at the end of The Grove? Obviously, Carol saw what she had done as being bad enough that she saw death as a fair punishment.
    That's a challenging question. It's highly sensitive to time, context, and personal opinion, so it'll be tough to answer without appearing to be selective. On one aspect (assuming death is a valid punishment in the ZA), you have to determine the window of time for judgment. If Tyreese were alive and he went up to Carol and said, "I'm ready to kill you," it would be difficult to justify his actions, especially if he forgave her and ended up changing his mind. It's like the saving grace of Dexter's shitty season 6, Brother Sam. He killed a man, but he rehabilitated himself and was so contrite to the point where it would've been difficult for Dexter to kill him. Just how well does someone have to rehabilitate themselves to be redeemed from murder? Can murder even be redeemed?

    I'm mixed on this one. Definitely have to think about it before answering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by booksrbetter
    We could go with your belief that external factors can drive us to do bad things. (poor pete driven to madness by the casserole lady) Carol had suffered severe trauma from living in an abusive situation. Lost her daugher. Lost friend after friend. Given responsibility to make decisions for the group in and out of the council. Increasingly fearful that this flu would kill everyone that she cared about at the prison. Terrorized when she saw daryl and glenn digging graves for the dead without proper safety gear. It drove her to do something.
    Or we can accept that she chose to put down two dying people and tried to burn their bodies to eradicate germs. that would mean that she would have done the same thing even if it was maggie and glenn.
    Yes, we could, but we couldn't use it to justify those bad things. The thing is, I used external factors to find out one factor in why Pete went over the edge. You use external factors to justify the premeditated murder of two innocents.

    I didn't ask you whether she would have done the same thing to Maggie and Glenn, as that was part of the hypothetical. I asked if you would justify it then. Do not dodge me.
    I wrote that she should have said something.
    You didn't address the rest of that part of the post.
    No, I am not. I am accepting that sometimes there is not a safe answer.
    Yes, you are.
    Let's not muddy the waters by bringing in rapists, serial killers, abusers, mass murderer, or a good human being. Yes, we are influenced by our environment but we still have to take personal responsibility for our actions.
    I extended the application of my conclusion because it applies to everyone in the real world, as it should TWD. Never did I say that people weren't to be held responsible for their actions. That part was my version of "I know why she did it," except in no way did I use it to justify what Pete did, as you did with Kavid.
    I'm not defending what Pete did.
    Nobody said that you were. Read it again.
    My assessment is that he could have chosen a different path.
    My assessment is that you deliberately avoided to address Carol's part in his anger, preferring to go off topic in a thread designated for Carol debate.
    Sadly Carol could have chosen a different path but continued to be abused.

    Maybe you aren't as blind as I thought you were. Personal responsibility, yes? Controlling one's situation to the best of their ability, yes? Prevention, yes?
    Carol disrespecting him and being physical with him made him angry.
    After countless rounds of bullshit on your part, you finally gave me what I wanted. Thank you for the clean win.

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    Governor HateForTheMasses's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bork View Post
    That's a challenging question. It's highly sensitive to time, context, and personal opinion, so it'll be tough to answer without appearing to be selective. On one aspect (assuming death is a valid punishment in the ZA), you have to determine the window of time for judgment. If Tyreese were alive and he went up to Carol and said, "I'm ready to kill you," it would be difficult to justify his actions, especially if he forgave her and ended up changing his mind. It's like the saving grace of Dexter's shitty season 6, Brother Sam. He killed a man, but he rehabilitated himself and was so contrite to the point where it would've been difficult for Dexter to kill him. Just how well does someone have to rehabilitate themselves to be redeemed from murder? Can murder even be redeemed?

    I'm mixed on this one. Definitely have to think about it before answering.
    The Brother Sam arc is so under appreciated in the Dexter fandom. I completely agree that it was the only high point of season 6. I was so apprehensive of his character at first but was very pleasantly surprised. Some people got so caught up in the religious aspect of his character and didn't bother looking deeper and seeing exactly what you just pointed out. Oddly enough most of those fans also thought Hannah was a great character. Take my Beth, Dale, Jessie, and Carol hate and combine them and you'll get pretty close to my opinion on Hannah. Had to get the Hannah hate in.

    Its actually a very interesting comparison. On one hand you have have a character that is expressing genuine remorse for his past but much of the online fandom is very skeptical. I thought they did a great job walking that line with Sam. With Carol what we see in the Grove sure feels like genuine remorse but then she turns right around and continues the shady behavior and continues to get the benefit of the doubt with a large portion of the online fandom.

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    Sharpshooter Bork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HateForTheMasses View Post
    The Brother Sam arc is so under appreciated in the Dexter fandom. I completely agree that it was the only high point of season 6. I was so apprehensive of his character at first but was very pleasantly surprised. Some people got so caught up in the religious aspect of his character and didn't bother looking deeper and seeing exactly what you just pointed out. Oddly enough most of those fans also thought Hannah was a great character. Take my Beth, Dale, Jessie, and Carol hate and combine them and you'll get pretty close to my opinion on Hannah. Had to get the Hannah hate in.
    I really liked Brother Sam, shitty as the season was. Hannah was a horrible character though. Just like most of the story in the end, she fell in place and neatly filled those holes in Dexter. Why he went out of character for her yet not over Rita... alright let me get back on topic.

    Its actually a very interesting comparison. On one hand you have have a character that is expressing genuine remorse for his past but much of the online fandom is very skeptical. I thought they did a great job walking that line with Sam. With Carol what we see in the Grove sure feels like genuine remorse but then she turns right around and continues the shady behavior and continues to get the benefit of the doubt with a large portion of the online fandom.
    To answer the question: I don't think Carol deserved to die in The Grove but I wouldn't have been mad if Tyreese killed her. She earned her life in my eyes by the confession itself, the clear remorse, and no signs of malicious intent. She pretty much let him know that it would hang over her, which to me is punishment enough given what she's seen. Still, if he shot her right there, he'd be avenging Karen and David not too long after they died and after he was viciously beaten. It would say nothing bad about his character if he killed her, and everything about his strength if he didn't (which obviously happened). If Rick told Tyreese about Kavid as soon as he knew at the prison, I would be 100% on board with him executing her right there, barrels of water kicked over or not. Her feelings were obviously divided on something that she shouldn't have done in the first place, giving off that she'd continue if nobody knew. Sneaky shit.

    Carol debate needs something NEW. @Simone What's your answer to that question?

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