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  1. Back To Top    #21
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    Problem Child F1R3H4WK's Avatar
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    I definitely like the route they're taking with Gavin. Like others have said, he is more like someone who doesn't like their job but does it anyways because they have to pay the bills. Almost like a salesperson knowingly selling bullshit - yeah the probably feel bad, but they still have bills to pay.

    Jared on the other hand is pretty damn unlikable. The actor does a good job of it though, feels less cringey and more natural, unlike the one Savior Davey, who was harassing Enid. It will be fun to watch him die. They better not give him a quick death - he needs to die slowly and turn.

    Just thinking about what they could do with Gavin... I don't see him defecting. It would be cool if they showed his group doing one more pick up from the Kingdom and him having a heart to heart with Ezekiel. Basically just saying something like how sorry he is, having a genuine moment where he shows remorse for Ben's death and how he has to follow the rules set out by Negan. It would drive home the point that Saviors are largely just regular people doing terrible things to survive. Then they could take that one step further and have Rick's group assault his outpost and slaughter him without remorse because 'they're all just saviors'. It would be a chance to make a point about morality and shades of grey.

  2. Back To Top    #22
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    Winter is Somewhere Beatrice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by F1R3H4WK View Post
    I definitely like the route they're taking with Gavin. Like others have said, he is more like someone who doesn't like their job but does it anyways because they have to pay the bills. Almost like a salesperson knowingly selling bullshit - yeah the probably feel bad, but they still have bills to pay.

    Jared on the other hand is pretty damn unlikable. The actor does a good job of it though, feels less cringey and more natural, unlike the one Savior Davey, who was harassing Enid. It will be fun to watch him die. They better not give him a quick death - he needs to die slowly and turn.

    Just thinking about what they could do with Gavin... I don't see him defecting. It would be cool if they showed his group doing one more pick up from the Kingdom and him having a heart to heart with Ezekiel. Basically just saying something like how sorry he is, having a genuine moment where he shows remorse for Ben's death and how he has to follow the rules set out by Negan. It would drive home the point that Saviors are largely just regular people doing terrible things to survive. Then they could take that one step further and have Rick's group assault his outpost and slaughter him without remorse because 'they're all just saviors'. It would be a chance to make a point about morality and shades of grey.
    I agree somewhat with what you say about Gavin. I equate him to a corporate type who climbed the ladder because he likes the money/lifestyle but hates the job. That's pretty much along the lines of what you and others have said. I don't completely excuse him, though, because what his "company" is doing is evil, and he doesn't have to function at the level he does in order to survive.

    Jared is completely unlikeable, but I can't take my eyes off his hair. It's so clean and silky and shiny - so unlike most of the hair we see people wearing in the ZA. I'm guessing shampoo is on his every shopping list! He does need to die, though. Horribly, if possible!

    I don't want him having a heart to heart with Ezekiel, though, for a couple of reasons. Gavin can't have a heart to heart with Ezekiel telling him how sorry he is in front of his men. He has to lead those men, and even the mild display of sympathy he showed over Ben's death concerned me. It was nice that he was sorry, but he put his credibility at risk with it. He can't do anything that might expose a weakness to his men. Also, Ezekiel might be lulled back into no fight mode because of such a show of remorse or sympathy. Last thing our people need is for Ezekiel to assume this was a one-off accident. Ezekiel may know he has to fight, but I still think he doesn't want to. It's something he's simply accepted he has to do. I don't want him changing his mind.

    I don't think any more points need to be made about morality and shades of grey with these people, either. They have the capacity to treat their own people and newcomers well, but they are all Negan, and we know Negan can turn on a dime. So can they. That's part of being Negan. I don't want another storyline right now either, especially as relates to the Saviors, about how ruthless OUR people can be in terms of slaughtering people without remorse. The saviors - every last one of them - has earned whatever slaughter without remorse comes their way.

  3. Back To Top    #23
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    Sharpshooter Dead Dee's Avatar
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    Gavin seems like he could be a decent guy if he wasn't a Savior, I liked his reaction to Ben's death and to Jared. Speaking of Jared, he needs to die a slow, painful death.

  4. Back To Top    #24
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    Love Interest xingtai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice View Post

    I don't think any more points need to be made about morality and shades of grey with these people, either. They have the capacity to treat their own people and newcomers well, but they are all Negan, and we know Negan can turn on a dime. So can they. That's part of being Negan. I don't want another storyline right now either, especially as relates to the Saviors, about how ruthless OUR people can be in terms of slaughtering people without remorse. The saviors - every last one of them - has earned whatever slaughter without remorse comes their way.
    I mostly agree. You got me rethinking things. At this time they've done enough with Gavin. If the show runners are smart, they'd keep the character around and give him more later, like a background player, i. e. is Rick and Negan are A players, characters like Dwight and the rest of the mains being B players, keep Gavin a D character that is around. Season 8 slowly elevate him to C because they've already established a solid character here that would make the eventual Post-Negan Saviors make sense; afford the audience a small figure to buy that. Season 7 and through a large chunk of season 8 keep him at the "Tobin but afforded more character beats than Tobin was afforded" level. I think the show has something here. Never an A or B character, but keeping him around a bit in the background for consistency. They've got a good actor in that role. The dude radiates quiet exhaustion effortlessly and his, "I don't want to do this but I have to do this" approach were palpable. Not a lot of dialogue, but performance and narrative context: the actor nailed it. Really good casting there. This guy, the Sanctuary thief, disgruntled Negan harem ladies: little notes over time that build to a more credible post-Negan Saviors assuming the show will continue to follow the comic after AOW. Having recognizable identifiers that the Sanctuary community isn't as iron clad as Negan thinks it is has been one of the slow building background events I think the show has started doing well. I think people miss the point that Negan is Negan's #1 fan and his hubris is part of his Achilles' tendon. He has shit worked out on his head that his rule by fear and breaking down people into subservience and then "rewarding" them with a points system only goes so far. When dictators get too comfortable and smug, that's when the internal rot sets in. People waiting for his fall from the inside, feeling trapped and unable to do anything otherwise. The system in play rewards those who report others, so everybody has to keep up the ruse. Not entirely dissimilar to how things ran under the cultural revolution. People continuing to do terrible things out of fear that if they don't, they will be the one hanging on the end of the noose. A catch 22 in their social hierarchy. Gavin falls into that.

  5. Back To Top    #25
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    Team Dwerrylusional tabitha ate my stash's Avatar

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    @Beatrice I was right with you there, until this last bit:

    The saviors - every last one of them - has earned whatever slaughter without remorse comes their way.
    I've got to take issue with this! I can think of a good dozen Saviors, off the top of my head, who do not deserve this fate. We've been shown that there are many - maybe even the majority - who are imprisoned in an utterly dire situation and just trying to survive, or enable their loved ones to survive. We have not been shown they all deserve to be slaughtered without remorse! Even if it's just the soldiers you were thinking of.

    As for Jared however, they can do whatever they want with that piece of filth. Really glad Ben at least got his "rat-faced prick" line in before snuffing it. I can think of some really neat uses for his hair too.

  6. Back To Top    #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabitha ate my stash View Post
    @Beatrice I was right with you there, until this last bit:



    I've got to take issue with this! I can think of a good dozen Saviors, off the top of my head, who do not deserve this fate. We've been shown that there are many - maybe even the majority - who are imprisoned in an utterly dire situation and just trying to survive, or enable their loved ones to survive. We have not been shown they all deserve to be slaughtered without remorse! Even if it's just the soldiers you were thinking of.

    As for Jared however, they can do whatever they want with that piece of filth. Really glad Ben at least got his "rat-faced prick" line in before snuffing it. I can think of some really neat uses for his hair too.
    Thank you for your response, but which saviors can you think of who are not deserving of this?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xingtai View Post
    I mostly agree. You got me rethinking things. At this time they've done enough with Gavin. If the show runners are smart, they'd keep the character around and give him more later, like a background player, i. e. is Rick and Negan are A players, characters like Dwight and the rest of the mains being B players, keep Gavin a D character that is around. Season 8 slowly elevate him to C because they've already established a solid character here that would make the eventual Post-Negan Saviors make sense; afford the audience a small figure to buy that. Season 7 and through a large chunk of season 8 keep him at the "Tobin but afforded more character beats than Tobin was afforded" level. I think the show has something here. Never an A or B character, but keeping him around a bit in the background for consistency. They've got a good actor in that role. The dude radiates quiet exhaustion effortlessly and his, "I don't want to do this but I have to do this" approach were palpable. Not a lot of dialogue, but performance and narrative context: the actor nailed it. Really good casting there. This guy, the Sanctuary thief, disgruntled Negan harem ladies: little notes over time that build to a more credible post-Negan Saviors assuming the show will continue to follow the comic after AOW. Having recognizable identifiers that the Sanctuary community isn't as iron clad as Negan thinks it is has been one of the slow building background events I think the show has started doing well. I think people miss the point that Negan is Negan's #1 fan and his hubris is part of his Achilles' tendon. He has shit worked out on his head that his rule by fear and breaking down people into subservience and then "rewarding" them with a points system only goes so far. When dictators get too comfortable and smug, that's when the internal rot sets in. People waiting for his fall from the inside, feeling trapped and unable to do anything otherwise. The system in play rewards those who report others, so everybody has to keep up the ruse. Not entirely dissimilar to how things ran under the cultural revolution. People continuing to do terrible things out of fear that if they don't, they will be the one hanging on the end of the noose. A catch 22 in their social hierarchy. Gavin falls into that.
    Completely agree that Negan is Negan's #1 fan! I don't think people have missed that, though. Good reference to the cultural revolution. I assume you are referring to China. Same can be said for Stalinist Russia where many of his top men lived in fear of being part of a purge yet did nothing to overthrow him!

  7. Back To Top    #27
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    Crotch Grabber wallykay's Avatar
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    Gavin is going to end up dead as fuck....same as Jared, just later.

  8. Back To Top    #28
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    Team Dwerrylusional tabitha ate my stash's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatrice View Post
    Thank you for your response, but which saviors can you think of who are not deserving of this?
    Considering the phrase whatever slaughter without remorse is conjuring up some pretty nasty and agonizing ways to die, my inner Dale is saying "all of them...?"

    But seriously - and my list comprises Saviors of different tiers - here's a bunch of random Negans I deem undeserving of that fate: Eugene, Gavin, Laura, Amber, the wretched souls working for points (sorry, their names numbers escape me), Mark, Tanya, Frankie, Simon (sorry, just too much hotness, humor and charisma there to be wasted), Keno, Gremblygunk, Dwighty...

    Okay that might not be a dozen, but it's close enough!

    Phew. That was harder than I thought.

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