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  1. Back To Top    #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    But Daryl wants it to be like it was back in the beginning with just a small group. Those words are from his mouth. And he does not need to be held back watching those kids. Carol is interesting to a lot of people. I for one love her for saving me from a terrible situation. Without her I would probably be dead. I am sure that would make a lot of people happy if she didn't save me. People still love Rick with all the bullshit he did but Carol nope can't enjoy her story at all. Season 8 and 9 to with my watch group was sucky because they hated Carol. She was boring and uninteresting. They were not thrilled about her this season but they understood why she did the things she did. As I did too. That is why I love this site we all have different views and takes on the show.

    That group Daryl is talking about is his family - which is exactly the point. His family has always been the priority for him. It has changed and evolved as they lost people and met new people, but it always comes down to his family. Whether you like it or not, that includes Judith and RJ. Taking care of them doesn't hold Daryl back. On the contrary, that is a great opportunity to show Daryl's growth and evolution instead of just repeating the same cycle with him. More so because he's not alone - he's surrounded by family to help. Becoming part of a loving family is a huge part of Daryl's story and it's what elevates his character from the boring, lone wolf stereotype - which Daryl never really was because he always wanted to belong in this family even when his fear they would send him away led him to be overly aggressive. Daryl always had the skills to survive on his own, but the important thing about his character is that he never wanted to be alone. He chose to stay because he wanted to be part of this family. That's who Daryl is - who he has always been at the core.

    Character regression is never a good thing. Understanding why Kang decided to regress Carol backwards does not change the fact that it was bad writing. Nor does understanding why Carol wanted revenge change the fact that acting on that too soon was stupid and put everyone in even more danger. She could have easily gotten her revenge after they neutralized the horde and everyone was safe. I do find it interesting that you consider Carol being happy and actually becoming an asset to the communities boring. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say that's telling. I guess you only find Carol interesting when she's completely miserable and a liability to everyone. But that is now extremely out of character for Carol after season 8. She is supposed to be smarter than this. She's supposed to be the one skilled at wearing masks and putting on pretenses - which is exactly what they needed to do with Alpha until they finalized a plan to neutralize the horde. But when it counted, Carol suddenly couldn't control herself or put on the pretense when it was actually needed to keep people safe until that plan was finalized and they were ready. That's a major contradiction and it creates a plot hole.

    It would have made more sense to focus on Carol's forward progression and how she had become an asset - particularly in learning to be a team player. That Carol would have been a huge help in the plan to play along with Alpha to buy time. That Carol would have been smart and waited until the horde was neutralized to go after Alpha - and it really should have been Carol who faced off with Alpha personally in the end. Not to mention the teases about Carol studying martial arts with Jesus - that could have been an amazing fight scene between Carol and Alpha. We finally got an opportunity for Carol's strengths - masks and pretenses - to be exactly the biggest asset they had and an opportunity for her to have a truly badass fight scene, but Kang completely ignored it to take Carol backwards for forced drama instead. But that's exactly why Carol is such a controversial character. Every time they have the chance to show forward progression and have her grow, they opt to go backwards and use her as a convenient plot device to force drama instead. Sure, Melissa is fabulous at producing tears and portraying grief, but she is capable of so much more than that. That's why Carol's story in season 10 was such a huge disappointment. They had everything they needed to give her an amazing story and Kang just tossed it all away to repeat the same, tired story we've seen repeated over and over again for Carol.

  2. Back To Top    #12
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    Don't pull the shipping bullshit with me. Yes I hated her with Zeke he made her stupid. My 20 other watchers loved her and Zeke they just thought she was boring and uninteresting and kinda dumb. Carol would have raised Henry smarter than she did. They didn't like that she was no involved in anything that really mattered to the story. Most are guys and they like her being involved in the action not playing house. I am to tired and going through to much physical pain to argue with you. Plus I know what you think of me so it is a mute point to even keep talking. Peace
    Quote Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
    That group Daryl is talking about is his family - which is exactly the point. His family has always been the priority for him. It has changed and evolved as they lost people and met new people, but it always comes down to his family. Whether you like it or not, that includes Judith and RJ. Taking care of them doesn't hold Daryl back. On the contrary, that is a great opportunity to show Daryl's growth and evolution instead of just repeating the same cycle with him. More so because he's not alone - he's surrounded by family to help. Becoming part of a loving family is a huge part of Daryl's story and it's what elevates his character from the boring, lone wolf stereotype - which Daryl never really was because he always wanted to belong in this family even when his fear they would send him away led him to be overly aggressive. Daryl always had the skills to survive on his own, but the important thing about his character is that he never wanted to be alone. He chose to stay because he wanted to be part of this family. That's who Daryl is - who he has always been at the core.

    Character regression is never a good thing. Understanding why Kang decided to regress Carol backwards does not change the fact that it was bad writing. Nor does understanding why Carol wanted revenge change the fact that acting on that too soon was stupid and put everyone in even more danger. She could have easily gotten her revenge after they neutralized the horde and everyone was safe. I do find it interesting that you consider Carol being happy and actually becoming an asset to the communities boring. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say that's telling. I guess you only find Carol interesting when she's completely miserable and a liability to everyone. But that is now extremely out of character for Carol after season 8. She is supposed to be smarter than this. She's supposed to be the one skilled at wearing masks and putting on pretenses - which is exactly what they needed to do with Alpha until they finalized a plan to neutralize the horde. But when it counted, Carol suddenly couldn't control herself or put on the pretense when it was actually needed to keep people safe until that plan was finalized and they were ready. That's a major contradiction and it creates a plot hole.

    It would have made more sense to focus on Carol's forward progression and how she had become an asset - particularly in learning to be a team player. That Carol would have been a huge help in the plan to play along with Alpha to buy time. That Carol would have been smart and waited until the horde was neutralized to go after Alpha - and it really should have been Carol who faced off with Alpha personally in the end. Not to mention the teases about Carol studying martial arts with Jesus - that could have been an amazing fight scene between Carol and Alpha. We finally got an opportunity for Carol's strengths - masks and pretenses - to be exactly the biggest asset they had and an opportunity for her to have a truly badass fight scene, but Kang completely ignored it to take Carol backwards for forced drama instead. But that's exactly why Carol is such a controversial character. Every time they have the chance to show forward progression and have her grow, they opt to go backwards and use her as a convenient plot device to force drama instead. Sure, Melissa is fabulous at producing tears and portraying grief, but she is capable of so much more than that. That's why Carol's story in season 10 was such a huge disappointment. They had everything they needed to give her an amazing story and Kang just tossed it all away to repeat the same, tired story we've seen repeated over and over again for Carol.

  3. Back To Top    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Don't pull the shipping bullshit with me. Yes I hated her with Zeke he made her stupid. My 20 other watchers loved her and Zeke they just thought she was boring and uninteresting and kinda dumb. Carol would have raised Henry smarter than she did. They didn't like that she was no involved in anything that really mattered to the story. Most are guys and they like her being involved in the action not playing house. I am to tired and going through to much physical pain to argue with you. Plus I know what you think of me so it is a mute point to even keep talking. Peace

    I wasn't talking about shipping at all. That's irrelevant to characterization. The fact is, Carol was a lot smarter in seasons 8 and 9 because they were actually giving her character development so she was moving forward. She had learned from her previous mistakes so she wasn't sneaking around behind people's backs. She wasn't lying to everyone and trying to manipulate them. She was being herself and learned how to be a team player. And she was certainly not just "playing house". She was involved in every major battle in AOW - and was a big asset to all of the communities because she was working with them at that time.

    That simply was not the case for season 10. It would have made more sense for Carol to continue to work with her friends instead of turning against them because of her obsession with revenge. She reverted back to lying to everyone and trying to manipulate them. She reverted back to sneaking around behind their backs. She reverted back to thinking everything had to be done her way without any regard to what was actually best. Because Michonne and Daryl were right - they needed to play along with Alpha to buy time while they figured out how to deal with that horde. The horde was the real threat and killing Alpha didn't make anything better - just as Michonne and Daryl tried to tell her. It made things worse. They needed to get rid of the horde first and then kill Alpha after her power had been stripped away. Beta and the rest of the whisperers would not have had anything to use against them with that plan. That's what was best for all the communities. Carol was only thinking about herself and getting revenge.

    In seasons 8 and 9, Carol was smart and helped saved lives. In season 10, Carol's stupidity put everyone in even more danger and caused people to die. Letting Negan out was the most stupid thing she did - and that makes her culpable for all the deaths Negan caused at ASZ and Hilltop. And the destruction of the Hilltop community. Because Kang found it more convenient to use Carol as a plot device to force drama rather than following the natural trajectory her arc should have had. None of that has anything to do with shipping.

    Oh, and it's moot point - not mute.

  4. Back To Top    #14
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    Thing is no one died because of Carol. Gabe and Michonne let Dante in so Siddiqs death is on those two. Beatrice went into the herd knowing she might not come out of it. They all knew this. So who did Carol get killed. She sure didn't start the Whisper war either. Yes she screwed up but so did other people. People seem to forget others mistakes. Wonder why that is.
    Quote Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
    I wasn't talking about shipping at all. That's irrelevant to characterization. The fact is, Carol was a lot smarter in seasons 8 and 9 because they were actually giving her character development so she was moving forward. She had learned from her previous mistakes so she wasn't sneaking around behind people's backs. She wasn't lying to everyone and trying to manipulate them. She was being herself and learned how to be a team player. And she was certainly not just "playing house". She was involved in every major battle in AOW - and was a big asset to all of the communities because she was working with them at that time.

    That simply was not the case for season 10. It would have made more sense for Carol to continue to work with her friends instead of turning against them because of her obsession with revenge. She reverted back to lying to everyone and trying to manipulate them. She reverted back to sneaking around behind their backs. She reverted back to thinking everything had to be done her way without any regard to what was actually best. Because Michonne and Daryl were right - they needed to play along with Alpha to buy time while they figured out how to deal with that horde. The horde was the real threat and killing Alpha didn't make anything better - just as Michonne and Daryl tried to tell her. It made things worse. They needed to get rid of the horde first and then kill Alpha after her power had been stripped away. Beta and the rest of the whisperers would not have had anything to use against them with that plan. That's what was best for all the communities. Carol was only thinking about herself and getting revenge.

    In seasons 8 and 9, Carol was smart and helped saved lives. In season 10, Carol's stupidity put everyone in even more danger and caused people to die. Letting Negan out was the most stupid thing she did - and that makes her culpable for all the deaths Negan caused at ASZ and Hilltop. And the destruction of the Hilltop community. Because Kang found it more convenient to use Carol as a plot device to force drama rather than following the natural trajectory her arc should have had. None of that has anything to do with shipping.

    Oh, and it's moot point - not mute.

  5. Back To Top    #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Thing is no one died because of Carol. Gabe and Michonne let Dante in so Siddiqs death is on those two. Beatrice went into the herd knowing she might not come out of it. They all knew this. So who did Carol get killed. She sure didn't start the Whisper war either. Yes she screwed up but so did other people. People seem to forget others mistakes. Wonder why that is.
    I wasn't talking about Siddiq - that was on Alpha and Dante and would have happened regardless of Carol's mistakes. But Beatrice is another issue. Yes, she willingly chose to participate in the adjusted plan. However, the fact remains that they were forced to adjust the plan and take such a huge risk by walking through the horde because Carol and Negan killed Alpha before they ready to carry out the plan. Alpha's death is what pushed Beta over the edge and exactly why they needed to wait to kill her until after they had neutralized the horde. And Carol just walked away from Beatrice without even grabbing the bag she was carrying - which she was supposed to do if anything happened to Beatrice. That was why they had teams of two after all. One to carry the supplies and one to protect - if anything happened to the carrier, the protector was supposed to grab the supplies. Thankfully, Lydia was there to grab the bag so at least Beatrice didn't die for nothing. But if Carol had just had a little patience and waited, none of them would have had to walk through that massive horde because the wagon would have been ready to go in advance and they could have diverted the horde before they were surrounded.

    However, what I was primarily referring to were the deaths Negan caused at ASZ and Hilltop after Carol foolishly set him free. Carol and Negan perpetuated a chain of events that led to several deaths. Starting with Carol deliberately antagonizing Alpha when they needed to play along to buy time. And that was not a heat of the moment reaction, Carol planned that out in advance. She deliberately took that gun with her and hid it from the others because she intended to try to shoot Alpha. And she knew that they would be unarmed and outnumbered so she was willing to sacrifice Daryl, Michonne, and several other people just to take a shot at Alpha. Not to mention the fact that, had she succeeded, Beta would have also unleashed the herd on the communities so Carol was willing to sacrifice everyone. Right off the bat, Carol handed Alpha the advantage on a silver platter.

    And then there's Lydia - which has multiple fallouts. First, Daryl couldn't take care of Lydia the way she needed him too because he was so busy babysitting Carol to try to stop her from doing all these stupid things and getting everyone killed. Lydia ends up taking terrible advice from Negan as a result - and that just made things worse for her. The resulting distraction allows Carol to sneak in and set Negan free. And then she tops it all off by taking advantage of this poor, traumatized kid by lying to her and manipulating her into leaving the safety of ASZ. Just to use her as a convenient tool to try to turn the whisperers against Alpha. Carol showed no regard for Lydia's safety or well being. When Lydia figured that out, she ran away - which leads to another link in the chain later on. And then Carol lies to Daryl again to try to stop him from trying to find Lydia and help her.

    Then there was Carol's asinine plan to cross the border, capture a whisperer, and try to force him to tell her where Alpha was. Yes, she claimed she wanted to find the horde but that was a lie - just like her claim that she was searching for Negan was a lie. Carol had no plan to deal with the horde - she lied about that to manipulate Daryl into helping her when she realized he wasn't going to let her go alone. And, again, Carol was willing to sacrifice Daryl because all she cared about was finding Alpha to kill her. Negan was always the backup plan because she wanted to kill Alpha herself. She likely figured the whisperers would kill him anyway. But this was part of the chain of events because that whisperer was not alone. There were at least 3 other whisperers with him that were able to report back to Alpha that someone crossed the border and captured him. That's why Alpha moved the horde into the cave.

    The cave itself was something that could have been avoided if Carol had just listened to Daryl. Instead, she keeps lying to him and trying to ditch the group because the only reason she went out there was to hunt for Alpha. Sure, they could have been callous and left Carol in the cave to die alone, but that's not who they are. They don't leave anyone behind if there's even the smallest chance to save them. Blaming the victims doesn't change the fact that Carol should never have tried to ditch them or gone into the cave in the first place. And trying to use unstable dynamite was beyond stupid. Especially knowing that a stick of dynamite was never going to put a dent in a horde that size. Maybe she took out a handful, but the horde was still massive and decimated Hilltop. That was just a complete waste of time and only served to escalate the danger further.

    In the midst of all that, Negan threw Gamma under the bus - it wasn't necessary for him to do that but, at that point, he was focused on trying to convince Alpha to help him enslave the communities again rather than trying to help them so he didn't care. After the cave incident, Alpha believed that the communities had sent people across the border to spy on them and found the herd. She was focused on trying to find the spies in the woods - which would have kept her and the whisperers occupied for some time - until Negan told her it was Gamma and she decided to send Beta to ASZ to find Gamma instead. Beta killed several people at ASZ to create a diversion. Carol and Negan are indirectly responsible for all of those deaths because that would not have happened if Carol had not let Negan out.

    The cave incident also led to Daryl ending up in danger again when he was trying to find Connie and Magna. He ends up fighting Alpha and almost dying. Lydia saved him - which is the other link in the chain because it was Lydia choosing to save Daryl instead of rejoining the whisperers that drove Alpha to give up on her and attack Hilltop with the horde. Negan chose to help Alpha decimate Hilltop - including using his own trick to block the roads so they couldn't evacuate or even get the children to safety. Carol is indirectly responsible and Negan is directly responsible for the deaths at Hilltop as a result of this chain of events they perpetuated.

    Of course, that also led to Negan realizing that Alpha was not going to go along with his plan to enslave the communities - as much as he enjoyed the thought of them all being walkers, he wants most of them alive to be his slaves and do his bidding again. So he reverts back to his original plans to manipulate them from the inside in hopes of being able to regain control over them someday. But Negan following Carol's orders is the last link in the chain because the horde was still the primary threat and they were not yet ready to neutralize it. Which brings us full circle to how killing Alpha too soon forced them to change the plan and they had to risk walking through the horde to finish getting the wagon ready.

    If you remove Carol from the situation - say she stayed out on the boat for example - or if Carol had worked with them instead of against them, it all changes.


    • Michonne and Daryl successfully buy time for them to plan and strategize how to neutralize the horde.
    • Negan remains locked up - or is finally executed as he should have been in 8x16.
    • Alpha does not move the horde.
    • Lydia does not run away.
    • The cave incident does not happen.
    • Alpha does not send Beta to ASZ so those deaths don't happen.
    • Daryl doesn't fight Alpha and Lydia never has that confrontation with her.
    • No attack on Hilltop so those deaths don't happen.


    In that event, the communities would have had plenty of time to finalize their plans and have the wagon - or even multiple wagons - ready to lure the horde away. They would have had the advantage and been able to minimize the risks as much as possible. Carol could still have gotten her revenge even working with them instead of against them - she would just have to wait until after the horde was neutralized. Really, that would have been a more satisfying revenge for Carol because Alpha would have suffered more knowing that they had completely eliminated her power. And the bonus would be that we could have gotten that epic showdown between Carol and Alpha instead of an anticlimactic death by proxy.

    No other characters were used as a convenient plot device to force drama to the same degree as Carol and Negan - and that is the problem because Kang intentionally made the two of them responsible for almost everything bad thing that happened. The stuff with Dante and Siddiq was the only exception because Alpha set that in motion right after the pike deaths. But those events were also somewhat isolated because Dante ultimately failed in his mission and Siddiq's death didn't really have any major impact on the war with the whisperers. It was an emotional punch, but it didn't change their plans or have any impact on Alpha or Beta's actions the way Carol and Negan did. Kang could have gone a different route to create those dramatic events - i.e. another whisperer or Beta overhearing Gamma talking to Aaron or the bullies forcing Lydia out of ASZ and Daryl going after her - but she chose to use Carol and Negan for all those things instead.

  6. Back To Top    #16
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    But Michonne and Gabe let Dante in. Oh wait forgot Michonne does not wrong. Yes Carol is a screw up that is what you want me to say. So CAROL IS A FUCK UP AND A STUPID BITCH CHARACTER. Does that make you happy. Guess what I still love her bet that pisses you off. If people can still love Rick then I can still love Carol. I am done talking to you. You see everything different than me. Thing is all you do is bring up everything Carol does but no one else. So have a nice day.
    Quote Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
    I wasn't talking about Siddiq - that was on Alpha and Dante and would have happened regardless of Carol's mistakes. But Beatrice is another issue. Yes, she willingly chose to participate in the adjusted plan. However, the fact remains that they were forced to adjust the plan and take such a huge risk by walking through the horde because Carol and Negan killed Alpha before they ready to carry out the plan. Alpha's death is what pushed Beta over the edge and exactly why they needed to wait to kill her until after they had neutralized the horde. And Carol just walked away from Beatrice without even grabbing the bag she was carrying - which she was supposed to do if anything happened to Beatrice. That was why they had teams of two after all. One to carry the supplies and one to protect - if anything happened to the carrier, the protector was supposed to grab the supplies. Thankfully, Lydia was there to grab the bag so at least Beatrice didn't die for nothing. But if Carol had just had a little patience and waited, none of them would have had to walk through that massive horde because the wagon would have been ready to go in advance and they could have diverted the horde before they were surrounded.

    However, what I was primarily referring to were the deaths Negan caused at ASZ and Hilltop after Carol foolishly set him free. Carol and Negan perpetuated a chain of events that led to several deaths. Starting with Carol deliberately antagonizing Alpha when they needed to play along to buy time. And that was not a heat of the moment reaction, Carol planned that out in advance. She deliberately took that gun with her and hid it from the others because she intended to try to shoot Alpha. And she knew that they would be unarmed and outnumbered so she was willing to sacrifice Daryl, Michonne, and several other people just to take a shot at Alpha. Not to mention the fact that, had she succeeded, Beta would have also unleashed the herd on the communities so Carol was willing to sacrifice everyone. Right off the bat, Carol handed Alpha the advantage on a silver platter.

    And then there's Lydia - which has multiple fallouts. First, Daryl couldn't take care of Lydia the way she needed him too because he was so busy babysitting Carol to try to stop her from doing all these stupid things and getting everyone killed. Lydia ends up taking terrible advice from Negan as a result - and that just made things worse for her. The resulting distraction allows Carol to sneak in and set Negan free. And then she tops it all off by taking advantage of this poor, traumatized kid by lying to her and manipulating her into leaving the safety of ASZ. Just to use her as a convenient tool to try to turn the whisperers against Alpha. Carol showed no regard for Lydia's safety or well being. When Lydia figured that out, she ran away - which leads to another link in the chain later on. And then Carol lies to Daryl again to try to stop him from trying to find Lydia and help her.

    Then there was Carol's asinine plan to cross the border, capture a whisperer, and try to force him to tell her where Alpha was. Yes, she claimed she wanted to find the horde but that was a lie - just like her claim that she was searching for Negan was a lie. Carol had no plan to deal with the horde - she lied about that to manipulate Daryl into helping her when she realized he wasn't going to let her go alone. And, again, Carol was willing to sacrifice Daryl because all she cared about was finding Alpha to kill her. Negan was always the backup plan because she wanted to kill Alpha herself. She likely figured the whisperers would kill him anyway. But this was part of the chain of events because that whisperer was not alone. There were at least 3 other whisperers with him that were able to report back to Alpha that someone crossed the border and captured him. That's why Alpha moved the horde into the cave.

    The cave itself was something that could have been avoided if Carol had just listened to Daryl. Instead, she keeps lying to him and trying to ditch the group because the only reason she went out there was to hunt for Alpha. Sure, they could have been callous and left Carol in the cave to die alone, but that's not who they are. They don't leave anyone behind if there's even the smallest chance to save them. Blaming the victims doesn't change the fact that Carol should never have tried to ditch them or gone into the cave in the first place. And trying to use unstable dynamite was beyond stupid. Especially knowing that a stick of dynamite was never going to put a dent in a horde that size. Maybe she took out a handful, but the horde was still massive and decimated Hilltop. That was just a complete waste of time and only served to escalate the danger further.

    In the midst of all that, Negan threw Gamma under the bus - it wasn't necessary for him to do that but, at that point, he was focused on trying to convince Alpha to help him enslave the communities again rather than trying to help them so he didn't care. After the cave incident, Alpha believed that the communities had sent people across the border to spy on them and found the herd. She was focused on trying to find the spies in the woods - which would have kept her and the whisperers occupied for some time - until Negan told her it was Gamma and she decided to send Beta to ASZ to find Gamma instead. Beta killed several people at ASZ to create a diversion. Carol and Negan are indirectly responsible for all of those deaths because that would not have happened if Carol had not let Negan out.

    The cave incident also led to Daryl ending up in danger again when he was trying to find Connie and Magna. He ends up fighting Alpha and almost dying. Lydia saved him - which is the other link in the chain because it was Lydia choosing to save Daryl instead of rejoining the whisperers that drove Alpha to give up on her and attack Hilltop with the horde. Negan chose to help Alpha decimate Hilltop - including using his own trick to block the roads so they couldn't evacuate or even get the children to safety. Carol is indirectly responsible and Negan is directly responsible for the deaths at Hilltop as a result of this chain of events they perpetuated.

    Of course, that also led to Negan realizing that Alpha was not going to go along with his plan to enslave the communities - as much as he enjoyed the thought of them all being walkers, he wants most of them alive to be his slaves and do his bidding again. So he reverts back to his original plans to manipulate them from the inside in hopes of being able to regain control over them someday. But Negan following Carol's orders is the last link in the chain because the horde was still the primary threat and they were not yet ready to neutralize it. Which brings us full circle to how killing Alpha too soon forced them to change the plan and they had to risk walking through the horde to finish getting the wagon ready.

    If you remove Carol from the situation - say she stayed out on the boat for example - or if Carol had worked with them instead of against them, it all changes.


    • Michonne and Daryl successfully buy time for them to plan and strategize how to neutralize the horde.
    • Negan remains locked up - or is finally executed as he should have been in 8x16.
    • Alpha does not move the horde.
    • Lydia does not run away.
    • The cave incident does not happen.
    • Alpha does not send Beta to ASZ so those deaths don't happen.
    • Daryl doesn't fight Alpha and Lydia never has that confrontation with her.
    • No attack on Hilltop so those deaths don't happen.


    In that event, the communities would have had plenty of time to finalize their plans and have the wagon - or even multiple wagons - ready to lure the horde away. They would have had the advantage and been able to minimize the risks as much as possible. Carol could still have gotten her revenge even working with them instead of against them - she would just have to wait until after the horde was neutralized. Really, that would have been a more satisfying revenge for Carol because Alpha would have suffered more knowing that they had completely eliminated her power. And the bonus would be that we could have gotten that epic showdown between Carol and Alpha instead of an anticlimactic death by proxy.

    No other characters were used as a convenient plot device to force drama to the same degree as Carol and Negan - and that is the problem because Kang intentionally made the two of them responsible for almost everything bad thing that happened. The stuff with Dante and Siddiq was the only exception because Alpha set that in motion right after the pike deaths. But those events were also somewhat isolated because Dante ultimately failed in his mission and Siddiq's death didn't really have any major impact on the war with the whisperers. It was an emotional punch, but it didn't change their plans or have any impact on Alpha or Beta's actions the way Carol and Negan did. Kang could have gone a different route to create those dramatic events - i.e. another whisperer or Beta overhearing Gamma talking to Aaron or the bullies forcing Lydia out of ASZ and Daryl going after her - but she chose to use Carol and Negan for all those things instead.

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    sorry for being so bitchy. Haven't had coffee yet and going through some stuff. Should not have taken it out on you. So very sorry.

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    I liked it besides Michonne's leaving. I hate that she has left the show now. I also don't like these actors leaving BUT POSSIBLY coming back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    But Michonne and Gabe let Dante in. Oh wait forgot Michonne does not wrong. Yes Carol is a screw up that is what you want me to say. So CAROL IS A FUCK UP AND A STUPID BITCH CHARACTER. Does that make you happy. Guess what I still love her bet that pisses you off. If people can still love Rick then I can still love Carol. I am done talking to you. You see everything different than me. Thing is all you do is bring up everything Carol does but no one else. So have a nice day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    sorry for being so bitchy. Haven't had coffee yet and going through some stuff. Should not have taken it out on you. So very sorry.

    I don't even speak to anyone until I've had some caffeine so no worries. But I do want to be clear that I'm talking about the writing and criticizing Kang's choice to make Carol the main scapegoat in season 10. In season 9, she made Michonne the scapegoat - and completely skipped over the reason why in the time jump so we still have no idea why there was such a huge rift between Maggie and Michonne that the Hilltop guards insisted she disarm herself before letting her in even after Maggie left. It's just lazy writing to take one or two characters and use them as a plot device to force the drama for all the major plot points in the arc. I criticize things like this because I love the characters too and it's frustrating when the writers take such lazy shortcuts and completely disregard characterization for convenience. I focus more on the writing because I am a writer and I deal with the frustration by figuring out how it could have been written better.

    The issue for me is not characters making mistakes in general - nobody is perfect and everyone screws up from time to time. The question is whether or not those mistakes make sense in terms of characterization and the overall story being told. And it becomes a big problem when a writer chooses to focus on one character making all the major mistakes just to move the plot forward without taking those things into consideration just because it's convenient. The situation with Dante was handled in a more believable way for several reasons. It wasn't just one character - the whole council had to agree about letting new people in. Dante not only put on a good act, he was also a doctor so it made sense for them to give him a chance because doctors are valuable assets - particularly in the ZA. And it does make a difference that they were fooled by Dante - none of them intentionally endangered the community by letting a known whisperer live in ASZ. As soon as they figured it out, they interrogated him and then killed him. Dante killed two people, but he failed in the mission Alpha gave him and they didn't have to alter their plans because of him. It worked for the story being told and made sense for all the characters involved. The only issue with Dante was Lydia - just tossing in a line of dialog that she didn't know him was a lazy way to justify her not recognizing a whisperer.

    With Carol, Kang chose to make her actions intentional to force all the major dramatic plot points. Carol knew that they needed to play along with Alpha to buy time to figure out how to neutralize the horde, but she intentionally ignored that, refused to listen to anyone, and constantly lied to everyone to get what she wanted. She knew that taking a gun to that meeting and taking a shot at Alpha could get everyone killed, but she did it anyway. She knew that she was putting Lydia in danger by taking her out of ASZ, but she did it anyway. She knew that letting Negan out was dangerous and he would betray them if given the opportunity, but she did it anyway. And none of that made sense for Carol at this point in the story - particularly after all the development she had in seasons 8 and 9. Carol is smarter than this and it was contradictory to her characterization for her to suddenly choose to intentionally endanger everyone repeatedly just because she wanted revenge. It's just not believable for her at this point in the story.

    It's unfortunate that things like this happen all to frequently with adaptions of an existing storyline. It becomes plot driven because there are specific events that need to happen and some writers will be lazy by using the most convenient way to accomplish that instead of taking the time to figure out a scenario that makes sense for all the characters involved and is believable. The sad thing is, Kang really didn't need a scapegoat because the overall story for the whisperers already made it believable for Alpha to keep coming after them simply because she wanted to prove to Lydia that communities like this cannot succeed. Her obsession with convincing Lydia that her way was the only way to survive and wanting Lydia to be her successor was enough. It would have been more believable to keep the focus on Alpha's obsession. Let Michonne and Daryl convince her that she's got the communities under her thumb so she believed her plan was working. Have Beta or another whisperer figure out Gamma had turned against them. Have Lydia run away because the bullies convinced her that she was putting everyone in danger - Dante could have played a part in that as well. The internal conflict within the communities should have involved other characters who lost loved ones in the pike deaths - the parents/guardians of the other two teenagers, Earl because Tammy was his wife, Alden because Enid was his girlfriend, Frankie's daughter, Laura because she was friends with DJ, Rosita and/or Eugene because they were close to Tara - and so on and so forth. Putting all of the focus on Carol because of Henry was just lazy writing.

    There were just so many better and more believable options that making Carol the scapegoat for everything. And I really do feel we got gypped with Alpha dying by proxy instead of giving us an epic showdown between Carol and Alpha. I would have loved to see Carol actually using the martial arts she learned from Jesus to kick Alpha's ass before killing her personally. And that goes for Aaron too because he also learned martial arts from Jesus - and he really should have been the one to help Daryl take down Beta.

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    It is time for the other women on the show to screw up. Sadly it won't happen. It will always be Carol. They won't let perfect Maggie do anything like they do Carol. Won't let Rosita do anything like it either. For sure won't make Connie do anything wrong. Those 3 are untouchable to do anything that Carol does. I know why they won't make those 3 do bad things and it really pisses me off. Oh we will never know what happened between Maggie and Michonne.
    Quote Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
    I don't even speak to anyone until I've had some caffeine so no worries. But I do want to be clear that I'm talking about the writing and criticizing Kang's choice to make Carol the main scapegoat in season 10. In season 9, she made Michonne the scapegoat - and completely skipped over the reason why in the time jump so we still have no idea why there was such a huge rift between Maggie and Michonne that the Hilltop guards insisted she disarm herself before letting her in even after Maggie left. It's just lazy writing to take one or two characters and use them as a plot device to force the drama for all the major plot points in the arc. I criticize things like this because I love the characters too and it's frustrating when the writers take such lazy shortcuts and completely disregard characterization for convenience. I focus more on the writing because I am a writer and I deal with the frustration by figuring out how it could have been written better.

    The issue for me is not characters making mistakes in general - nobody is perfect and everyone screws up from time to time. The question is whether or not those mistakes make sense in terms of characterization and the overall story being told. And it becomes a big problem when a writer chooses to focus on one character making all the major mistakes just to move the plot forward without taking those things into consideration just because it's convenient. The situation with Dante was handled in a more believable way for several reasons. It wasn't just one character - the whole council had to agree about letting new people in. Dante not only put on a good act, he was also a doctor so it made sense for them to give him a chance because doctors are valuable assets - particularly in the ZA. And it does make a difference that they were fooled by Dante - none of them intentionally endangered the community by letting a known whisperer live in ASZ. As soon as they figured it out, they interrogated him and then killed him. Dante killed two people, but he failed in the mission Alpha gave him and they didn't have to alter their plans because of him. It worked for the story being told and made sense for all the characters involved. The only issue with Dante was Lydia - just tossing in a line of dialog that she didn't know him was a lazy way to justify her not recognizing a whisperer.

    With Carol, Kang chose to make her actions intentional to force all the major dramatic plot points. Carol knew that they needed to play along with Alpha to buy time to figure out how to neutralize the horde, but she intentionally ignored that, refused to listen to anyone, and constantly lied to everyone to get what she wanted. She knew that taking a gun to that meeting and taking a shot at Alpha could get everyone killed, but she did it anyway. She knew that she was putting Lydia in danger by taking her out of ASZ, but she did it anyway. She knew that letting Negan out was dangerous and he would betray them if given the opportunity, but she did it anyway. And none of that made sense for Carol at this point in the story - particularly after all the development she had in seasons 8 and 9. Carol is smarter than this and it was contradictory to her characterization for her to suddenly choose to intentionally endanger everyone repeatedly just because she wanted revenge. It's just not believable for her at this point in the story.

    It's unfortunate that things like this happen all to frequently with adaptions of an existing storyline. It becomes plot driven because there are specific events that need to happen and some writers will be lazy by using the most convenient way to accomplish that instead of taking the time to figure out a scenario that makes sense for all the characters involved and is believable. The sad thing is, Kang really didn't need a scapegoat because the overall story for the whisperers already made it believable for Alpha to keep coming after them simply because she wanted to prove to Lydia that communities like this cannot succeed. Her obsession with convincing Lydia that her way was the only way to survive and wanting Lydia to be her successor was enough. It would have been more believable to keep the focus on Alpha's obsession. Let Michonne and Daryl convince her that she's got the communities under her thumb so she believed her plan was working. Have Beta or another whisperer figure out Gamma had turned against them. Have Lydia run away because the bullies convinced her that she was putting everyone in danger - Dante could have played a part in that as well. The internal conflict within the communities should have involved other characters who lost loved ones in the pike deaths - the parents/guardians of the other two teenagers, Earl because Tammy was his wife, Alden because Enid was his girlfriend, Frankie's daughter, Laura because she was friends with DJ, Rosita and/or Eugene because they were close to Tara - and so on and so forth. Putting all of the focus on Carol because of Henry was just lazy writing.

    There were just so many better and more believable options that making Carol the scapegoat for everything. And I really do feel we got gypped with Alpha dying by proxy instead of giving us an epic showdown between Carol and Alpha. I would have loved to see Carol actually using the martial arts she learned from Jesus to kick Alpha's ass before killing her personally. And that goes for Aaron too because he also learned martial arts from Jesus - and he really should have been the one to help Daryl take down Beta.

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