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  1. Back To Top    #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christ2010Grad View Post
    Seems liked everyone on this forum (including myself) seemed to think the first half of Season 3 was top notch. It was in the 2nd half that everything sort of fell apart.
    That's how I feel too. Though my favourite episode of the series (Clear) is in the second half. The rest of it was way too drawn out and a bit all over the place. Did we really need an entire episode of Andrea running away from the Governor? There was so much hype about how it was "intense" and "all out war" and then Rick and the Gov are chatting across a table for an episode. Great acting in some of those scenes, but not worthy of an entire episode. When the "war" finally did come it...wasn't a war. It seemed like they set up all this great stuff in the first half and then had no idea what to actually do with it. I have high hopes for Gimple as he's written some of my favourite episodes and I hope he can keep the storytelling concise and on track.

  2. Back To Top    #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pandacoffee View Post
    That's how I feel too. Though my favourite episode of the series (Clear) is in the second half. The rest of it was way too drawn out and a bit all over the place. Did we really need an entire episode of Andrea running away from the Governor?
    I couldn't stand the Andrea running from The Governor episode. It was one big fillersode. How did he keep spotting her with one eye gone while speeding around in a truck?

    I really liked the first two episodes a lot and thought S3 would be pretty sweet, but the more they focus on Woodbury the more they lost me. That and there were too many inconsistencies. I still want to know how Daryl got caught when the Governor said shot to kill, take no prisoners. And then, ta da! Daryl is delivered with a bag on his head.

    Even though the second half was really a let down for me, especially the finale, I really liked Clear and the Sorrowful life and look forward to what Gimple brings to the table.

  3. Back To Top    #33
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    Oh yeah, I forgot about Daryl getting captured. That bugged me a lot too. That whole fight to death scene was off. I never bought they were in any actual danger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pandacoffee View Post
    Oh yeah, I forgot about Daryl getting captured. That bugged me a lot too. That whole fight to death scene was off. I never bought they were in any actual danger.
    I agree! It especially didn't look that dangerous if you watch the extras in the background. Bad...

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    -The way they handled Woodbury scenes
    -Andrea
    -Andrea's decisions and love choices
    -Andrea's reaction time
    -Martinez,Oscar,Axel being wasted
    - Merle dieing too soon (I loved his death it did him justice but it was too soon)
    - Michonne being cold to Merle (I really don't know about her tv counter part she may be as good as in the GN or not but I hope to discover this in season 4)
    - Tyreese's group and Woodborians (thrown in for the sake of it and not developed enough)
    - Andrea's death
    - The scene where Lori scolds Carl for going to find the infirmary (I get she is his mum but we already saw enough of that annoying face in season 1 and 2)
    - T-dog getting a much "bigger" role. (Am I the only one who wanted Merle and T-dog to fight and then see Daryl have to resolve things)
    - How little Daryl mourned Merle (After the crying he only mentioned Merle once to Carol)
    - THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE IS THAT WE DIDN'T SEE JAVIER THE PALE HORSE

    This all were the only flaws in season 3 for me and that being said the length of this list doesn't reflect my feelings for season 3 at all but are simply what I disliked. I actually loved season 3 and it was by far my favorite season.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Beside from arrow on the doorpost I liked the second half overall. I am not sure about episode 11 though because it was too Andrea centric but they did bitch slap her so it was all fun in the end.

  6. Back To Top    #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bestrafen View Post
    I'll be honest, fleshing out characters involve a significant amount of dialogue. The audience wouldn't tolerate it and then complain that it's "boring" or there's not enough zombie killin' action given what we've seen in remarks about S2.
    This is simply not true. Character development can be achieved in many ways. Dialog is certainly one of those ways, but it's not necessary to have a great deal of dialog or for the dialog to be boring. Axel is a good example of that because he got more development in two short conversations with Carol in a single episode than T-Dog did in 23 episodes. Even Michonne has a good foundation of development with them establishing that she has trust issues, is very cautious, extremely observant, and willing to risk her life to save others with very little dialog at all. They still need to flesh out her character with more background to explain why she is that way, but they've got a good foundation started.

    The number of episodes or characters in the story really do not matter at all because a good writer can properly develop a character within a single episode if need be - with or without dialog. Multiple characters can get development by simply having them interact with each other. Joss Whedon managed to do this with BtVS with the 16 main cast members, 24 secondary/recurring cast members, 70 single episode villains, 20 recurring villains - 12 of which were the "Big Bads" for the season, and over 50 recurring or background characters who had very few lines - some of which were basically just glorified extras in Buffy's high school. Still all of them were fleshed out so viewers knew them and cared about what happened to them. They were utilized in various episodes as part of the story. One of the background characters from seasons 1-5 was so well developed and became so popular with viewers, he got promoted to the main cast in season 6 - and, with the exception of one episode in season 5, he had never had more than a couple of lines in any episode he had appeared in prior to that. Joss Whedon also did an entire episode of Buffy that had absolutely no dialog whatsoever after the first 14 minutes - at which point the demons cast the spell to remove everyone's voices - and managed to further character development for all the series regulars, flesh out the demon enemies for that episode, include a major revelation with Buffy and her current boyfriend discovering each others secrets, and introduce and start development a brand new character to the show. The characters mimed and used dry erase boards to write things down. That episode also had the best exposition scene ever with Giles using an overhead projector to show the gang his drawings of the demons to explain what was happening. Absolutely hilarious and not a word of dialog was spoken. It was a brilliant episode and the only episode of BtVS that was ever nominated for an Emmy for best writing. Fleshing out characters does not require a significant amount of dialog at all. It just requires a good writer who knows what they're doing.

    To develop a character, the writer must actually do something with the character. They can't just be standing in the background taking up space. Interaction between the characters, putting them in situations where they have to actually do something, body language, facial expressions - all of these things can be used to develop characters in various ways. Background information is important, but it doesn't have to be extensive. Even just knowing that Rick used to be a cop reveals a great deal about what kind of person he is and explains many of his choices and actions. Knowing that Glen used to deliver pizza explains how he knew his way around Atlanta so well and was able to get in and out quickly and safely on his own. Even the most minor details can add to a character's development and help viewers understand who they are and care about what happens to them - or want the good guys to demolish them if they are a villain. That's why viewers get annoyed with characters like Beth. She still hasn't had any real development because they hardly ever do anything with that character. Mostly, she is just standing in the background taking up space. At this point, the most we can say about Beth is that she is a decent babysitter and has learned how to shoot a gun. If they're going to keep her around, they need to do something with the character to give her more development so viewers will care about her.

    - - - Updated - - -

    My husband needed the computer last night so I didn't get a chance to post what I disliked about season 3.

    I hated how Mazzara rushed through this plot arc with all the grace of a bull in a china shop. They kept talking about how they wanted to spread this plot arc over seasons 3 and 4 and they had more than enough material from the comic to adapt that would have easily allowed for that. I'm not saying they should have copied the comic exactly - they had already made too many changes to do that and parts of the comic are just too ridiculously exaggerated to work on the TV show - but the basic story elements were there for them to adapt and make it work. They could have spread this plot arc out over 3 seasons if they'd put a little thought into it. Instead, a plot arc that spread out over months in the comic was shortened to a couple of weeks on the show.


    • They found the prison much too soon - we should have had at least a couple of episodes showing the group's struggles to survive out in the open.
    • They killed the prisoners too soon - Tomas in particular would have been a great source of conflict within the prison. They could have gotten 3 or 4 episodes out of the group dealing with the prisoners.
    • They put Andrea and Michonne in Woodbury too soon - there wasn't even an attempt made to show what kind of friendship they had built up or to develop that friendship in any way. A couple of brief conversations that revealed next to nothing and then the two of them are thrown into conflict with each other over Woodbury. We should have had several episodes showing the two of them struggling out in the open as well. Not only would that have helped to establish what kind of friendship they had, it would have helped to develop Michonne's character and provided contrast to the group settling in at the prison.
    • The prison was breached too soon - they'd barely shut the door behind them when Andrew launched his attack with Lori and T-Dog getting killed. Then Glen and Maggie were kidnapped the next day. Too many terrible things happening in too short of a time frame for it to be plausible for the group to want to continue staying at the prison or consider it safe enough to be worthy of defending.
    • The conflict with the governor began too soon - same reasons as above. We really should not have even seen Woodbury or the governor until at least the back half of season 3 and that conflict should have been held off until season 4. Season 3 should have focused on the prison with the internal conflicts from the prisoners and the group trying to settle in and make that a home worth defending as well as establishing the friendship between Andrea and Michonne and using their struggles to contrast what was going on at the prison.
    • Not enough time given to Daryl and Merle after they were reunited - what was the point of bringing Merle back at all? We did get some scenes of them on their own in a single episode that were good, but that barely scratched the surfact. They could have gotten at least a couple more episodes out of the Dixon brothers. Major wasted opportunity.


    Other problems with season 3 -

    Uneven pacing. Parts of season 3 dragged so much that saying they were boring and snooze-worthy is being kind - specifically, nearly every episode revolving around Woodbury. Yawn. Other episodes went by so fast you couldn't be sure what happened or why. Someone really needs to explain to Mazzara that "put the viewers to sleep snail pace" and "blink and you'll miss it rocket speed" are not the only pacing options available. It is possible to find a good balance between the two - as we see in Clear.

    Plot driven writing with little to no regard to characterization. Primarily, this problem was seen with Andrea - she was used as little more than a plot device the entire season so nothing she did was even remotely consistent or plausible due to it all being dictated by the plot rather than them taking the time to come up with plausible reasons for her character to make those choices. However, they also did that with some of the other characters as well - i.e. Rick deciding to hand Michonne over after telling Hershel that he knew it wouldn't do any good because the governor would not keep his word. Plot driven writing generally makes the characters involved look like morons due to contradictory behavior and no plausibility. This also caused numerous problems with character development in general for all of the characters.

    Random/pointless deaths that did not make sense or had no impact. Lori's death was the only one that actually had any consistency or made any sense at all. The other deaths were just too random and seem to have been tossed in solely for shock value. T-Dog was only killed to try and trick the viewers into thinking nobody else would die in that episode. That type of random death should have been given to a background character like Oscar rather than one of the main cast. T-Dog or Beth should have been the one to die in the rescue mission at Woodbury. Axel did at least get a little character development before he died, but again, the death was random and had very little impact. One of the main cast should have died in that attack to give it the full impact it deserved - again, I would go with T-Dog or Beth. Using those characters in the rescue mission and during the attack to develop them would have given the deaths in those situations much more impact. Axel was proving to be an interesting character and he had skills useful to the group so they should have kept him around longer. Merle's death was also very random and felt arbitrary. It was also a waste of some great story potential. I get what they were going for, but like everything else in season 3, it was rushed so it did not have the impact it should have. Daryl didn't even have time to really grieve because they went straight into preparing to defend the prison against attack. Milton was a sacrificial lamb to facilitate Andrea's death and Andrea died simply because they had royally screwed up her character to the point that the only viable option was to kill her. Bad choices all the way around.

    Pointless plot bunnies that ended up not serving any purpose or going anywhere in the story. What was the point of Milton's research and experiments? What did that add to the story? Why didn't Andrea tell them to look through Milton's things because his research might help them in some way? Merle's attempt to kill the governor was also pointless and, beyond serving as a means to kill him off, it served no purpose to the story. He failed and his actions did not benefit his brother or the group in any way. His death would have had more meaning if his sacrifice had actually helped them in some way. The same is true for Andrea. Not only were her actions contradictory and not even remotely plausible, nothing she did made any difference or helped the group in any way. The best they can do there is say her death helped Rick realize they needed people, but Rick was already realizing that on his own. Morgan going crazy due to his isolation did more to help Rick figure that out than Andrea did. You could remove every scene Andrea was in from this season and nothing about the main story would change at all. Her entire presence this season was completely pointless.

  7. Back To Top    #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
    This is simply not true. Character development can be achieved in many ways. Dialog is certainly one of those ways, but it's not necessary to have a great deal of dialog or for the dialog to be boring. Axel is a good example of that because he got more development in two short conversations with Carol in a single episode than T-Dog did in 23 episodes. Even Michonne has a good foundation of development with them establishing that she has trust issues, is very cautious, extremely observant, and willing to risk her life to save others with very little dialog at all. They still need to flesh out her character with more background to explain why she is that way, but they've got a good foundation started.

    The number of episodes or characters in the story really do not matter at all because a good writer can properly develop a character within a single episode if need be - with or without dialog. Multiple characters can get development by simply having them interact with each other. Joss Whedon managed to do this with BtVS with the 16 main cast members, 24 secondary/recurring cast members, 70 single episode villains, 20 recurring villains - 12 of which were the "Big Bads" for the season, and over 50 recurring or background characters who had very few lines - some of which were basically just glorified extras in Buffy's high school. Still all of them were fleshed out so viewers knew them and cared about what happened to them. They were utilized in various episodes as part of the story. One of the background characters from seasons 1-5 was so well developed and became so popular with viewers, he got promoted to the main cast in season 6 - and, with the exception of one episode in season 5, he had never had more than a couple of lines in any episode he had appeared in prior to that. Joss Whedon also did an entire episode of Buffy that had absolutely no dialog whatsoever after the first 14 minutes - at which point the demons cast the spell to remove everyone's voices - and managed to further character development for all the series regulars, flesh out the demon enemies for that episode, include a major revelation with Buffy and her current boyfriend discovering each others secrets, and introduce and start development a brand new character to the show. The characters mimed and used dry erase boards to write things down. That episode also had the best exposition scene ever with Giles using an overhead projector to show the gang his drawings of the demons to explain what was happening. Absolutely hilarious and not a word of dialog was spoken. It was a brilliant episode and the only episode of BtVS that was ever nominated for an Emmy for best writing. Fleshing out characters does not require a significant amount of dialog at all. It just requires a good writer who knows what they're doing.

    To develop a character, the writer must actually do something with the character. They can't just be standing in the background taking up space. Interaction between the characters, putting them in situations where they have to actually do something, body language, facial expressions - all of these things can be used to develop characters in various ways. Background information is important, but it doesn't have to be extensive. Even just knowing that Rick used to be a cop reveals a great deal about what kind of person he is and explains many of his choices and actions. Knowing that Glen used to deliver pizza explains how he knew his way around Atlanta so well and was able to get in and out quickly and safely on his own. Even the most minor details can add to a character's development and help viewers understand who they are and care about what happens to them - or want the good guys to demolish them if they are a villain. That's why viewers get annoyed with characters like Beth. She still hasn't had any real development because they hardly ever do anything with that character. Mostly, she is just standing in the background taking up space. At this point, the most we can say about Beth is that she is a decent babysitter and has learned how to shoot a gun. If they're going to keep her around, they need to do something with the character to give her more development so viewers will care about her.
    I agree with this greatly. This is probably one of my hugest problems with the Walking Dead: Minor characters are under-utilized, not given any development or are given nothing to do. If the show just gave most (if not all) of the minor characters a little bit of dialogue then we know lots more about them. If they had just given Axel character development in the previous episode and in the episode "Home," then I'm sure his death would have been quasi-gutwrenching when it happened. I think we would have felt for heart broken had they given Dr. Caleb Subramanian a little bit more dialogue in the episode Internment of Season 4. At the very least let us get to know what type of occupations the redshirts had before the ZA hit and whether or not they lost people(as well as the relationships they had with the people they lost). At least give us just that so when they are killed off we can a little sad when they go.

  8. Back To Top    #38
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    Zombie Hoarder AllLifeIsPrecious's Avatar

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    Ghost Lori. I mean, I liked Lori as a character, but come on, do we really need her back as a ghost? I'll admit that I liked the phone calls in "Hounded."

    How Andrea was handled this season. This pissed me off the most about this season. Mazzara ruined her character by putting her in Woodbury and having a relationship with The Governor. She really deserved better than that. Andrea was also killed off because Mazzara had "writer's block."

    Unnecessary/too soon deaths. Seriously, was Mazzara bloodthirsty? T-Dog, Axel, Oscar, Big Tiny, Milton, Andrea, and Merle had potential, but Mazzara threw it all way.

    The season finale. The biggest factor of me hating this episode is because of Andrea's bullshit death. She can take down 3 walkers with a knife, yet she couldn't take down walker Miltin with pliers? Plus, they made her spend all that time talking to Milton instead of trying to break free. That said, fuck you Mazzara.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christ2010Grad View Post
    What were the things you disliked about Season 3?
    All of it

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